V DEEP....How good or bad is it?.

Derek The Dane · In the Long Grass

V DEEP....How good or bad is it?.

ArrGee · Back To Boomtown

Derek The Dane wrote:
I have just been playing the 2005 copy of V Deep.After all these years after the original in 1982 it just seems a lot better today.I do not know whether the changing around of the songs helped but I really enjoyed listening to it again.It seems a natural follow on from Mondo Bongo.I allways enjoyed House On Fire and Skin On Skin but He Watches It All has really grown on me.Was it a bad album at the time or did the Rats release the wrong singles from it.

I think it was a bad album, and I don't think there were any decent singles on it bar House on Fire, though I think He Watches It All is the best track on it.

My feeing about V Deep is it was a lazy album. Cott had left, and there are a few tracks that were left over from Mondo Bongo and just completed. Originally Godley & Creme were producing it, but Geldof just went back to Visconti to finish it off (a bit like Surfacing when Phil Wainman was dumped for Mutt Lange). It's a natural follow on because most of it was recorded at the same time.

To be honest it wouldn't have mattered what singles were released, the Rats were more or less forgotten at that point superceded by the likes of Spandau & Duran. Pretty much none of their contemporaries sold too much at the time (even later bands like The Teardrop Explodes were on the wane at that point). The mistake with the album (my opinion) was that it just wasn't true to the Rats (same criticism of Mondo Bongo) and the songs were weak.

Had In the Long Grass been the fourth album (where the songs were strong) and it had been produced properly, then it is possible the Rats may have extended their career a little

Mark Boyle · House on Fire

I have to come to the defence of "V Deep". Yes, there were some lousy bits, but at least it was a break away from the self-indulgence of "Mondo Bongo", which was to the Boomtown Rats what "10" proved to be for Blur.

The problem with the album was the length of time they'd been away on their world tour, and pissing off a large section of their fanbase by doing what too many of the punk & new waves bands had done by getting into reggae & funk then expecting their fans to "like it".

"Never In A Million Years" was a beautiful song, let down by a stupid single cover that did not have the band's name on it at all (so no one knew a new Rats single was out when it was stocked in the likes of Woolies & Boots, which in those days were the major record retailing outlets) & lazy promotion. "House On Fire" if anything was the final nail in the Rats' coffin, leaving everyone convinced they had mutated into yet another whitey-doing-cod-reggae band.

The band should have taken time out, and released the stuff later, when their stuff would have been more in keeping with the move in music at the times to boppier music & away from the cold sound of the Human League et al. Unfortunately that was no longer an option with the taxman on their back after Fachtna's great tax dodge went breasts up on them: they needed to get in revenue.

The reissue of "V Deep" gave a decent album a well deserved second chance. But oh, how much better the gothier live version of "Talking In Code" is to the tame studio version.

And is it just me, or does "He Watches It All" sound as if they couldn't be bothered finishing the song properly?

ArrGee · Back To Boomtown

Mark Boyle wrote:
And is it just me, or does "He Watches It All" sound as if they couldn't be bothered finishing the song properly?

I don't think they were bothered about finishing either Mondo Bongo or V Deep.

Mondo Bongo was a brave attempt to break away from what had become established as the Rats sound, it was just not done too well and the songs were weak. A braver band would have scrapped it all and started again. But the tours were lined up, so the album had to be released.

Surfacing though a big seller was never critically acclaimed, and Mondo Bongo smacks of "I show you how clever/creative we are". However, it probably wasn't the time to do it. Arguably, few of the class of '77 did much post 1980 (The Police and Stranglers being notable exceptions but with a very different sound).

i remember at the time prior to the release of Mondo Bongo, it was initially to have been a return to basics, and more akin to the debut album than Surfacing, but what came out really wasn't a return to anything nor really a great step forward, just a bit scattergun.

V Deep is an album I never warmed to. Sure there are good parts, but like Mondo Bongo, overall the songs are weak. I get the nagging feeling that large chunks of it were cast offs from Mondo, and it was all a bit rushed.

Derek The Dane · In the Long Grass

You could put the best of Mondo Bongo and V Deep together and get a good album.But that does not help much.

ArrGee · Back To Boomtown

Derek The Dane wrote:

You could put the best of Mondo Bongo and V Deep together and get a good album.But that does not help much.

I agree. Proposed track listing (If you could fit it on) .....

He Watches It All
Straight Up
Go Man Go
The Bitter End
House on Fire
This is My Room
Elephant's Graveyard
House Burned Down....

Banana Republic (short version)
No Hiding Place
Hurt Hurts
Man At The Top
Up All Night (short version)
Fall Down
A Storm Breaks
Cheerio

Derek The Dane · In the Long Grass

Great track listing there Argee.That would have made a great album.

londonson · Mary of the 4th Form

i am still a newcomer to the rats so maybe i see things from a different angle. after the greatest hits album i bought vdeep on vinyl yesterday and i think it is a wonderful, adventurous album. Never in a million years has been my all-time favouirite over the recent months but i think He watches it all comes pretty close to the same intense quality, Talking code is fine as well and i think it´s far from being a lazy record - there´s so much going on; different sounds, instruments, styles, sometimes layered spectacularly; there´s some quirkiness going on as well which i like and every song has a surprise in store...the album may not be to everyone´s taste - but who would want that anyway???

stuart · House on Fire

To be honest Arrgee not bad listings but im surprised that Never in a Million Years is not on it as i think that it was by far the best thing that they done around that period

Mark L · Loudmouth

This review I stumbled across on the net sums it up:

The Rats obviously are not accentuating the positive here. Some sample lyrics: "I'd spit in their eye"; "It isn't too far to the bitter end"; "Hear the news/It's all grief and gloom/Yes things are bad/Really bad." Sour dispositions aside, this is not an uninteresting LP, largely because the Irish quintet's singer-composer, Bob Geldof (who plays Pink in director Alan Parker's nihilistic film Pink Floyd The Wall), knows enough to vary his approaches musically even when he is trapped in a deep rut lyrically. The Rats go from the punky sounds of The Bitter End to the near-cool jazz of The Little Death without blinking, tossing in some reggae and basic rock in between. The sound is murky and tedious at times, intriguing at others. This LP won't trap many new fans for the Rats, but the faithful will most likely take the bait.

manatthetop · In the Long Grass

In my opinion this is a good wee album. Strong points House on fire, Never in a million years, He watches it all, Skin on skin, Talking in code. Low point Charmed lives. Rest of the songs i can live with

manatthetop · In the Long Grass

This was the only Rats album that not only had any photos of the Rats front/back cover But all the 3 singles did not have any images of the band. Any reason for this?

Mark L · Loudmouth

Not that I know to. The font for the singles/album was awful (or missing in the case of Million Years) and on Charmed Lives blended badly with the crackled background.

I didn't think much of the stretched black font used for ITLG. Best font was on Tonic for the Troops.

ArrGee · Back To Boomtown

manatthetop wrote:
This was the only Rats album that not only had any photos of the Rats front/back cover But all the 3 singles did not have any images of the band. Any reason for this?

Maybe they didn't like Having Their Pictures Taken at the time...

(I'll get my coat)

jamieuka · House on Fire

On the original vinyl, the band picture was on the inner sleeve (BG in an oversized beret, if memory serves).

ArrGee · Back To Boomtown

jamieuka wrote:
On the original vinyl, the band picture was on the inner sleeve (BG in an oversized beret, if memory serves).

Ah, you would go and spoil my joke...

Derek The Dane · In the Long Grass

Always wondered why they put Up All Night on Mondo Bongo in the USA and on V Deep in the UK.It was released as a single as well in Germany and America.

ArrGee · Back To Boomtown

The chronlogical recording of the tracks doesn't necessarily match to the releases.

Up All Night was recorded at the same time as the other Mondo tracks (likewise House on Fire) and was probably considered a better bet as a single in the USA. They probably dropped Fall Down in the US as it didn't fit into their perception of the Rats.

It's All The Rage may have been recorded in 1977, it certainly was written back then but never appeared until 1979. Late Last Night is also likely to have been around for a year or so. I am pretty sure they played it at The Rainbow in 1978.

diffbrook · House on Fire

Did they record 2 versions of "Up all Night" for the Mondo Bongo sessions? Certainly the version released as a single (in GermanY) is vastly different to that on V Deep. Or was it re recorded for V Deep?

ArrGee wrote:
The chronlogical recording of the tracks doesn't necessarily match to the releases.

Up All Night was recorded at the same time as the other Mondo tracks (likewise House on Fire) and was probably considered a better bet as a single in the USA. They probably dropped Fall Down in the US as it didn't fit into their perception of the Rats.

It's All The Rage may have been recorded in 1977, it certainly was written back then but never appeared until 1979. Late Last Night is also likely to have been around for a year or so. I am pretty sure they played it at The Rainbow in 1978.

suss · In the Long Grass

jamieuka wrote:
On the original vinyl, the band picture was on the inner sleeve (BG in an oversized beret, if memory serves).

If memory serves me, and it's a sorry state of affairs when I'm too lazy to walk about 5 yards to living room and check, the inner sleeve photos also featured Gerry. Never could work that one out.

May be wrong but there was definitely something issued after his time that included a pic.

suss · In the Long Grass

Although something is telling me that might have been on the V Deep CD reissue. Bu99er...curiosity has got to me now.

suss · In the Long Grass

Ok, was on the CD only. Vinyl did indeed have the 5 only in pic, and spot on with the hat memory Jamie, although it looks a bit more Russian than French.

So CD reissue was bad in terms of 'continuity' at least, unless the Up All Night recording featured GC I guess?

suss · In the Long Grass

p.s. Any comparisons with JoanOfArc style posting entirely justified and irrefutable biggrin

manatthetop · In the Long Grass

suss wrote:
jamieuka wrote:
On the original vinyl, the band picture was on the inner sleeve (BG in an oversized beret, if memory serves).
If memory serves me, and it's a sorry state of affairs when I'm too lazy to walk about 5 yards to living room and check, the inner sleeve photos also featured Gerry. Never could work that one out.
May be wrong but there was definitely something issued after his time that included a pic.

Might be due to the fact that he did (Gerry) play on some of the songs that ended up on the V Deep LP?

diffbrook · House on Fire

What songs did Gerry play on? I cant think of any? I know the version of Up all Night that was included on US Version of Mondo Bongo featured Gerry, but the version that was on V Deep was a lot different and presumably was re recorded without him?

ArrGee · Back To Boomtown

diffbrook wrote:
What songs did Gerry play on? I cant think of any? I know the version of Up all Night that was included on US Version of Mondo Bongo featured Gerry, but the version that was on V Deep was a lot different and presumably was re recorded without him?

Unknown, if at all. My earlier post (below) may have been interpreted as saying Cott did play on V Deep, but it ain't necessarily so. House on Fire and Up All Night were recorded as part of Mondo. Other songs may have been. How complete any of these recordings that were released after Mondo Bongo is unknown. These may have been remixed for V Deep or just re-recorded.

PS - Geldof's biography states that House on Fire was done in one take, so if that is to be believed (seems unlikely) the V Deep version was recorded as part of Mondo. However, it's not evidence Cott played on it.

ArrGee wrote:
The chronological recording of the tracks doesn't necessarily match to the releases.

Up All Night was recorded at the same time as the other Mondo tracks (likewise House on Fire) and was probably considered a better bet as a single in the USA. They probably dropped Fall Down in the US as it didn't fit into their perception of the Rats.

jamieuka · House on Fire

Here are my guesses:

1) Gerry did not play on any recordings used for V Deep (management would have been careful to avoid having to pay him royalties, surely?).
2) The recording of Up All Night that appears on V Deep was not recorded during the time Mondo Bongo was recorded (see 1 above).
3) The recording of Up All Night that appears on V Deep was done in one take but with later overdubs (at the end you can here Geldof say, "Well done.")
4) The recording of House on Fire was not done in one take, rather Geldof (or his ghost writer) is remembering the wrong song (see 3 above) or a sub editor messed up.

I find it intriguing, considering it's one of the more recent albums, that there is much confusion around the facts re recording and production of V Deep e.g. both Visconti and Godley and Creme 'claiming' they produced it. That said, I seem to remember a recent interview with Garrick where he recalled the rig (guitar, amp, effects) he used on Talking in Code in great detail. Next time I bump into him I must remember to quiz him a length on the matter of V Deep.

ArrGee · Back To Boomtown

jamieuka wrote:
Here are my guesses:

1) Gerry did not play on any recordings used for V Deep (management would have been careful to avoid having to pay him royalties, surely?).
2) The recording of Up All Night that appears on V Deep was not recorded during the time Mondo Bongo was recorded (see 1 above).
3) The recording of Up All Night that appears on V Deep was done in one take but with later overdubs (at the end you can here Geldof say, "Well done.")
4) The recording of House on Fire was not done in one take, rather Geldof (or his ghost writer) is remembering the wrong song (see 3 above) or a sub editor messed up.

I find it intriguing, considering it's one of the more recent albums, that there is much confusion around the facts re recording and production of V Deep e.g. both Visconti and Godley and Creme 'claiming' they produced it. That said, I seem to remember a recent interview with Garrick where he recalled the rig (guitar, amp, effects) he used on Talking in Code in great detail. Next time I bump into him I must remember to quiz him a length on the matter of V Deep.

It's a mystery alright.

Where did Godley and Creme claim they produced it? I do vaugely remember "Lol & Kev" being thanked on the inner cover, but thought that all their work had effectively been dumped like Wainman's on Surfacing.

noelindublin · Loudmouth

jamieuka wrote:
Here are my guesses:

1) Gerry did not play on any recordings used for V Deep (management would have been careful to avoid having to pay him royalties, surely?).
2) The recording of Up All Night that appears on V Deep was not recorded during the time Mondo Bongo was recorded (see 1 above).
3) The recording of Up All Night that appears on V Deep was done in one take but with later overdubs (at the end you can here Geldof say, "Well done.")
4) The recording of House on Fire was not done in one take, rather Geldof (or his ghost writer) is remembering the wrong song (see 3 above) or a sub editor messed up.

I find it intriguing, considering it's one of the more recent albums, that there is much confusion around the facts re recording and production of V Deep e.g. both Visconti and Godley and Creme 'claiming' they produced it. That said, I seem to remember a recent interview with Garrick where he recalled the rig (guitar, amp, effects) he used on Talking in Code in great detail. Next time I bump into him I must remember to quiz him a length on the matter of V Deep.

there is much confusion around the facts re recording and production of V Deep.....

Ibiza can have that effect I hear smile

-- Edited by noelindublin on Monday 29th of September 2014 02:57:50 PM

jamieuka · House on Fire

Here's a thread from a few years ago:

boomtownrats.activeboard.com/t40859036/demo-versions-of-album-tracks/

I can't find the 1981 Melody Maker interview alluded to (search on Faecesbook is useless) but I seem to remember that G&C had been asked something to the effect of how they felt about being sacked from V Deep and they responded with confusion, "But didn't we produce that and they just got Visconti in for post-production...?"

PS more intrigue: in the earlier thread, BlastFromThePast contributed links to two snippets they have put up on Soundcloud. One appears to be from a demo for Charmed Lives but called "Hairstyle", the second an early demo for Beat of the Night with alternative lyrics which BlastFromThePast claimed in another thread is from 1982. The only other contribution to these forums is to offer that Garrick was endorsed by Ibanez guitars (is this true, was that his guitar...?). I can't help but wonder where this person got these tracks and info (a Rat?!)

-- Edited by jamieuka on Tuesday 30th of September 2014 08:43:29 AM

-- Edited by ArrGee1991 on Tuesday 30th of September 2014 10:40:24 AM - Removing a poster's real name

ArrGee1991 · Dave

jamieuka wrote:
PS more intrigue: in the earlier thread, BlastFromThePast contributed links to two snippets they have put up on Soundcloud. One appears to be from a demo for Charmed Lives but called "Hairstyle", the second an early demo for Beat of the Night with alternative lyrics which BlastFromThePast claimed in another thread is from 1982. The only other contribution to these forums is to offer that Garrick was endorsed by Ibanez guitars (is this true, was that his guitar...?). I can't help but wonder where this person got these tracks and info (a Rat?!)

Bl00dy hell Sherlock I have removed BlastFromThePast's real name as I like to afford people anonymity when they post and wouldn't want their name coming up on a google search.

But yes, I am interested where these snippets came from and if there are more out there.

jamieuka · House on Fire

Oops, didn't think that one through, thanks for edit, ArrGee!

Mark L · Loudmouth

There's not much that could make Charmed Lives worse, but calling it Hairstyle is a good start.

Interesting snippets though.

noelindublin · Loudmouth

Mark L wrote:
There's not much that could make Charmed Lives worse, but calling it Hairstyle is a good start.
Interesting snippets though.

I wonder does BFTP have full length recordings of these tracks? Maybe the Charmed Lives/Hairstyle one is largely just a backing track with the 'hairstyle' chorus. The other one seems like a full recording of what became The Beat of the Night. I'm still unclear if this latter track is from The Boomtown Rats days, or is it from Geldof and his first solo lp?

Mark L · Loudmouth

The latter track had slightly more of a Rats vibe to it than a solo vibe, to me anyway. I sensed Simon was on the drums rather than the DITHON drummer.

Would like to hear more along these lines too. Is the only way of contacting BFTP through here on the off chance they log on?

jamieuka · House on Fire

I've finally solved the problem of how to come down from the high of seeing Kate Bush's recent show at Hammersmith: get "Hairstyle" (being the song formerly known as "Charmed Lives") playing constantly in one's head for three days. Now I need the cure for earworms, which apparently is to solve some tricky anagrams!

FingersLullaby · Like Clockwork

V Deep's not a baaaaaad album, it's got a few good* songs on it, but as a piece it isn't one of my favourites...
Oh while I remember, is is Vee Deep or 5 Deep? I've never known for sure...

Mark L · Loudmouth

5 Deep. That's how I've always heard various band members in interviews refer to it as.

Jules · The biggest Geldof fan in the world, bar none!

Apparently it's names after a Japanese love making technique, 5 deep, 5 shallow, repeat...

back then hen I thought it meant 5 rats x 5th album biggrin

-- Edited by Jules on Thursday 30th of October 2014 07:20:00 PM

suss · In the Long Grass

Damn! I always thought it was 5 deep, 6 shallow. So that's where I've been going wrong all these years cry

Mark L · Loudmouth

Produced by Visconti, the Rats sound at times as if they're being forced to perform in a pit of thick molasses, preventing great songs like "Never In A Million Years" and "He watches it all" from properly taking flight. The latter tune suffers under Visconti's highly-stylized production flourishes when a simple, straightforward live-in-the-studio performance would have worked wonders. However, it is evident the band doesn't wish to repeat themselves and I commend them for that.

FingersLullaby · Like Clockwork

Nooiiiiiice! Haha :'D

Derek The Dane · In the Long Grass

I cannot hear any difference between the Mondo Bongo version and V Deep version of Up All Night.

jamieuka · House on Fire

Derek The Dane wrote:
I cannot hear any difference between the Mondo Bongo version and V Deep version of Up All Night.

No offence but seriously? They sound VERY different to me.

The Mondo Bongo version sounds slower and downbeat. The V Deep version has a much 'fatter' sound, 'bigger' backing vocals and funky slap bass, to name but a few elements.

Compare and contrast the bars going into the first "Say it ain't so, Joe": on the V Deep version Simon does a ferocious drum roll, on the Mondo version it just goes straight in. The middle eight in V Deep version features a piano solo, the Mondo equivalent is more like a bass solo with only the piano runs similar to the intro to Mondays...

I could go on up I suspect your are in fact listening to two copies of the same version, perhaps the Mondo long and Mondo short versions?

Mark L · Loudmouth

They are seriously different and in the way you describe. The original V Deep vinyl version is the best with the tinkering piano solo.

ArrGee · Back To Boomtown

ArrGee wrote:
Derek The Dane wrote:

You could put the best of Mondo Bongo and V Deep together and get a good album.But that does not help much.

I agree. Proposed track listing (If you could fit it on) .....

He Watches It All
Straight Up
Go Man Go
The Bitter End
House on Fire
This is My Room
Elephant's Graveyard
House Burned Down....

Banana Republic (short version)
No Hiding Place
Hurt Hurts
Man At The Top
Up All Night (short version)
Fall Down
A Storm Breaks
Cheerio

Mondo Deep. Another great Rats LP?

Derek The Dane · In the Long Grass

My Mondo Deep would be a 10 track album and include Go Man Go, Banana Republic(single version)Elephants Graveyard(album version),My Room,Hurt Hurts,Bitter End,He Watches It All,House On Fire(single version)Up All Night and Skin On Skin with House Burned Down as a little extra track.

stuart · House on Fire

Beats me why Europe looked ugly was never a single

Derek The Dane · In the Long Grass

Europe Looked Ugly was actualy on the Canadian version of V Deep.

ArrGee · Back To Boomtown

stuart wrote:
Beats me why Europe looked ugly was never a single

It was on the B-Side.

stuart · House on Fire

ArrGee wrote:
stuart wrote:
Beats me why Europe looked ugly was never a single
It was on the B-Side.

I'm aware of that

ArrGee · Back To Boomtown

stuart wrote:
ArrGee wrote:
stuart wrote:
Beats me why Europe looked ugly was never a single
It was on the B-Side.
I'm aware of that

So it was on a single

stuart · House on Fire

It was a B-Side to a single, however I think you know what I mean