Why Doesn't Mr Geldof Do Something COnstructive

Maria Full Of Grace · Lookin' After Number 1

Why Doesn't Mr Geldof Do Something COnstructive

Tango · In the Long Grass

thats disgraceful!but did you see geldof in africa.there were equally sickening stories there too.he is 'being constructive'.some one else should expose this terror.he has buisiness to attend to

Jules · The biggest Geldof fan in the world, bar none!

What do you think he can do? He can't be everywhere. Maybe this isn't the right forum for this? Write to your MP and draw it to their attention ask them what the British Government thinks and what they propose to do. Probably nothing.

You could also approach a campaigning charity. Good luck.

As Tango says there are many stories of atrocities around the world. We do need to expose them and raise awareness or else nothing will ever be done.

Stipey · Like Clockwork

Maria, It is very sad that this is happening. no question at all. But Bob cant be in two places at one time now. I'm certain that when Bob hears things about this he gets very upset. However, Bob is only human. He feels just like all of us about this war crap. yes, its sad. but again Bob is only human after all.......

MJ · Tonight

Alright, once again. Repeat after me: Bob Geldof is not God.

Now that we got this matter all cleared out, I've moved the thread because it really has nothing to do with Geldof.

spc1970 · Rat Trap

Maria Full Of Grace wrote:

I would have liked to see SOMEONE with the balls to go and be a human shield before the war but noone REALLY cares.

Like you?

THIS IS REAL SAD

All would agree.

As usual, US troops looked carelessly and walked away...

Please stop with the anecdotal evidence as proof of trends.

Republican Hospital

Notice how it is not a democrate hospital.

...to save the fetus

As usual, you liberal haters can't bring yourself to say "baby."

, but he was dead as the bullet had penetrated his chest and exited through his back

But the mother lived... that seems in complete harmony with liberal thinking. Funny but if it was a doctor who did the killing of the "fetus" it wouldn't even merit a mention from you.

The world is safer now

Yes. I believe we are in agreement. See the 60 minutes report this weekend for more info on how much safer we are.

Great job guys in uniform. Your country is proud of you.

Amen. At least the patriotic part of the country.

meekus · Tonight

Well, it looks as if I've found something to occupy myself with.

"Like you?"

I don't see you, sir, joining the dying soldiers. You expose your own hypocrisy along with his, as I do now. But, I'm a minor in Hawaii, so I don't have any practical or legal means to do so.

"As usual, you liberal haters can't bring yourself to say 'baby.'"

It would be a baby if it had been birthed. It was technically not a baby because the fetus was solely dependant on the mother to survive. My mother is a labor and delivery nurse (and has been for over 10 years).

"But the mother lived... that seems in complete harmony with liberal thinking. Funny but if it was a doctor who did the killing of the 'fetus' it wouldn't even merit a mention from you."

For me it would. But that was not the case.

You're extending and trying to analyze another person's opinions in a hypothetical (and an unbeknownst to the author) situation. That's rational.

"Yes. I believe we are in agreement. See the 60 minutes report this weekend for more info on how much safer we are."

And of course, we can all trust 60 minutes, from CBS - the same network that found fake documents of President Bush not reporting for Air National Guard duty. You should check a more reliable news source than something that will be biased by the opinion of a CEO.

I await a hopefully more convincing arguement.

-- Edited by meekus at 04:58, 2005-09-28

Tango · In the Long Grass

MJ wrote:

Alright, once again. Repeat after me: Bob Geldof is not God.

spc1970 · Rat Trap

meekus wrote:

I don't see you, sir, joining the dying soldiers. You expose your own hypocrisy...

I am former military. I have fought for my country. I have had friends die in combat. You are young. You are sheltered. You should be the poster child for the liberal agenda.

It would be a baby if it had been birthed. It was technically not a baby because the fetus was solely dependant on the mother to survive.

Technically not a baby? Sad. I thought at one point, in some other thread, you claimed to know Jesus. What Christian would ever say a thing like this?

My mother is a labor and delivery nurse (and has been for over 10 years).

She needs to go back to school. My doctorate is in biology and I've had my degree for 15 years.

That's rational.

I always am.

You should check a more reliable news source than something that will be biased by the opinion of a CEO.

I agree. Always check various sources. I was just pointing out some info that I don't think you or your ilk attempt to look for.

Meekus. Don't be embarrassed. We've all been young and dumb.

motema2004 · Tonight

These last few threads have little do do with Bob Geldof, as has been pointed out already; insulting one another on the forum proves nothing.

meekus · Tonight

"I am former military. I have fought for my country. I have had friends die in combat. You are young. You are sheltered. You should be the poster child for the liberal agenda."

If you love your country so much, lace up those boots, grab an M16, and fly to Baghdad. I dunno if SpaceA is available just yet. But 14 permanant bases are being set up. Chances are it will be soon enough. (Military dependant here)

"Technically not a baby? Sad. I thought at one point, in some other thread, you claimed to know Jesus. What Christian would ever say a thing like this?"

Well sir, I do know Jesus. "I am former military. I have fought for my country." You have either directly or vicariously killed someone (or someone who will die in a future war - logistics and such). Do you know Jesus, sir?

"She needs to go back to school. My doctorate is in biology and I've had my degree for 15 years."

My mother has been studying nursing since she left high school. The dependancy of a child to its mother makes it part of the mother. Not a living entity. That happens once the baby is out and the cord is cut. While you may believe a soul exists in the sperm (Every single sperm? A lot of those die too, naturally and "other ways". Guess that's all evil today. Guess we're all naturally evil.). Maybe the soul exists once the egg is fertilized. Maybe at 3 weeks. When exactly does the soul enter the fetus? I am curious.

"Meekus. Don't be embarrassed. We've all been young and dumb."

It's ok spc1970. We'll all become senile old farts someday.

spc1970 · Rat Trap

meekus wrote:

If you love your country so much, lace up those boots...

Terrible. I have served this country. Actually almost my entire family has served this country for the last three generations. I have had friends die as a result of defending this country and all you can respond with is a cavalier remark about boots. Classy.

Well sir, I do know Jesus. "I am former military. I have fought for my country." You have either directly or vicariously killed someone (or someone who will die in a future war - logistics and such). Do you know Jesus, sir?

Well lad, you don't know much about the Man or His message. Good fighting evil is OK. Oh yeah, I forgot, you're one of those "everything is relative" dullards. And I heard the Hawiian school system was fairly decent. Looks like one kid is being left behind.

The dependancy of a child to its mother makes it part of the mother. Not a living entity. That happens once the baby is out and the cord is cut.

I think you should consider retracting this statement as this definition of life is ill-concieved and seriously flawed. Only a very few on the far, far left of center would feel comfortable making this statement. You are taking a position that is deemed poor at best by a vast majority of scientists, doctors, politicians (left and right), and theologians.

When exactly does the soul enter the fetus? I am curious.

Does it really matter? There are mysteries that only God will know, but I would think that since God made us in His image it doesn't matter when. A baby is a miracle, not to be compared to a parasite.

After you hold your first born in your hands you should reflect back on these last two points you have tried to make and see if they still hold water for you.

It's ok spc1970. We'll all become senile old farts someday.

Maybe, maybe not. Not all old people are senile old farts, but all adults know that children are bold in their ignorance and confident in their naivete.

meekus · Tonight

"Terrible. I have served this country. Actually almost my entire family has served this country for the last three generations. I have had friends die as a result of defending this country and all you can respond with is a cavalier remark about boots. Classy."

It was more than about boots. Guess I confused you there. Go beyond the boots. Look outside of the boots. If the best way you can support your country anymore is by shamelessly battling a teenager in politics, than I feel truly sorry for you. Talk about classy.

"Well lad, you don't know much about the Man or His message. Good fighting evil is OK. Oh yeah, I forgot, you're one of those "everything is relative" dullards. And I heard the Hawiian school system was fairly decent. Looks like one kid is being left behind."

I was always thinking that evil is subjective to other people. As such, evil cannot be standardized to an entire religion, nation, army, etc. Your evil did nothing to promote violence against America (if we are in unified thought of Hussein). The war is most certainly not in the name of my equality-promoting world-loving America or my peaceful brotherly Christianity.

As for Hawaii: In fact, out of the 50 states, Hawaii is 50th in the nation. Unless you go to a private school (equal to the cost of a brand new SUV every year per child), then there are no hallways, no air conditioning, and bad teachers. In 2003, my middle school (Aliamanu Intermediate if you wanna look it up) had 39% of the teachers unqualified to teach their subjects. The government has left us all behind, my friend.

Furthermore, the teachers don't get paid enough, even with their union. My Hawaiian History/Civics teacher has to work a second job at the airport just to pay the rent. So even if the children weren't being left behind (which they are), they'd still be leaving the teachers behind. What's more shameful is that 70% of the student body is dependant upon military occupation of mom or dad. A lot of funding (aka crappy computers, which you need a pass, a form to fill out, $15 dollars, teacher's permission, and an open lab to get onto - then have to figure out how to use an Apple computer because that's not what the rest of American schools works on) comes from the military. They can't even give money to the teachers. It's really sad. Dunno where you heard that from.

"I think you should consider retracting this statement as this definition of life is ill-concieved and seriously flawed. Only a very few on the far, far left of center would feel comfortable making this statement. You are taking a position that is deemed poor at best by a vast majority of scientists, doctors, politicians (left and right), and theologians."

As we all know, politicians and theologians are the best in the field of my personal opinions and life sciences. It seems I have struck a personal chord with you on this one. Do I feel uncomfortable with this statement? You better believe I don't. While my view on God and life may not be the same as yours, or the majority of pastors, lab assistants, and state senators, you cannot prove beyond any doubt a matter of personal opinion. By its very nature that is impossible. By principle, no point can be proven. Only argued. That's the beauty of what wer'e doing!

Is the world wrong, then? With us few leftist anarchists trying to destroy the world with contraception and condoms? In your eyes.

"Does it really matter? There are mysteries that only God will know, but I would think that since God made us in His image it doesn't matter when. A baby is a miracle, not to be compared to a parasite."

I never compared a child to a parasite. Go ahead and give me the politically correct definition of parasite in your response, and compare to what I stated. I'll shoot you down again, and again, and again. And no, it doesn't matter when. I personally believe in souls, or at least a sense of morality in every person (by which NO standards can be applied). But apparently I'm the only one willing enough to stick up for those who don't agree with YOU. "There's no room in America for that kind of free thought!" - Anonymous

"After you hold your first born in your hands you should reflect back on these last two points you have tried to make and see if they still hold water for you."

They do, perfectly. The child is able to fend for himself in the world once he is no longer dependant on another source for shelter and food. I guess I'm comparing a mother a host then, huh? I don't see how you can even argue this. You helped to prove MY point. Quit wasting cyberspace.

"Maybe, maybe not. Not all old people are senile old farts, but all adults know that children are bold in their ignorance and confident in their naivete."

Right, because I don't have enough wisdom and experience and blah blah blah. If that was so, you'd stop with your petty "fight for the 'right'" against once of those ignorant youths. I'm too hopelessly lost. Just wait another 50 years when I have a sense of morality, religion, and politics...what a crock. You've made my evening.

-- Edited by meekus at 11:00, 2005-10-01

franna · V Deep

As a senile old fart, I thought I'd just stop by and pass some gas.

Anyone got a lighter?

Tango · In the Long Grass

hahahehe

Maria Full Of Grace · Lookin' After Number 1

Why this talk of god? God doesn't exist! I feel embarrassed for people when they start talking about god as if he/she/it's real.

Anyway, who would want to go and fight for Israel, lies or god??

What honour is there for dying in a sovereign place where you don't belong?
Iraq posed NO threat to anyone else outside the region!
There was NO link between Saddam and al Qaeda! (in fact Osama hated him cause he wasn't a Muslim)
Iraq could NOT mobilise and strike within 45 minutes!
Iraq DID NOT posess ANY WMDs!
What it DOES have is the second biggest oil reserve when we've already reached our peak in oil supply.

What I find fascinating is that Iraq was stable under Saddam and america with all it's superior resources and 'smart' technology can't even control an area outside the Green Zone. How did Saddam manage it?
At least the streets weren't blowing up sporadically! At least women had more rights than the rest of the region. And look at them NOW - they have to wear the headscarf and have some other rights removed cause Islamic parties are being installed.

Oh dear! What a mess!

Come on Bob.. fight buSSh!!

franna · V Deep

Yep, clearly a job for Bob.

Look! Up in the air! It's a bird! It's a plane! No, it's SuperBob. Fighting for truth, justice, and the American Way!

camilladk · Tonight

Tango · In the Long Grass

in the words of midge ure as bob handed him the mic and stepped off stage and the rain began to fall 'he's good but he's not that good'

meekus · Tonight

I guess he took a young adolescent's advice.

Again, proving that our views can meet.

Also proving that I was right. He realized he was wrong for once. This is a breakthrough!

franna · V Deep

Or, he's not checked the site. Or, having not changed his mind about the issue, he's simply decided to no longer participate in the "discussion."

meekus · Tonight

Guess I must be right then.

"I certainly was in the right."

franna · V Deep

I've never seen anyone as committed to being right as you are, meekus.

spc1970 · Rat Trap

Lets focus on the most important mistake you are making Meekus. Life. Forget the question of the infusion of a soul for a moment and focus soley on your idea of when "idependent" life begins.

While the definition of life can get tricky at times (e.g., viruses) all should agree with the following:

Living things tend to be complex and highly organized. They have the ability to take in energy from the environment and transform it for growth and reproduction. Organisms tend toward homeostasis: an equilibrium of parameters that define their internal environment. Living creatures respond, and their stimulation fosters a reaction-like motion, recoil, and in advanced forms, learning. Life is reproductive. To grow and develop, living creatures need foremost to be consumers, since growth includes changing biomass, creating new individuals, and the shedding of waste.

Not a single scientist from any field would argue with that definition of life. Now, you add a heaping spoonful of Planned Parenthood with a pinch of politics and you find a way to exclude human embryo's and babies from this definition.

Where do you find fault with this definition in saying a fetus is a living "thing." Not just a thing however, but something that has more value than just being an extension of the mother (like another appendix or thumb). On another thread you directed us all to view a PETA film showing the skinning of live animals and we were to be shocked and saddened (as we should be); yet you insist that a developing human baby is worthy of only silence or indifference when destroyed. At best you come across as claiming that an unborn baby is no different from any other part of the mother... at worst you compare the baby to be parasite, worthy of destruction.

My arguement on life is based on hundreds of years of scientific fact and inquiry. What is your's based on? The latest flier from a pro-abortion group? Enlighten us with your sources that define life as happening only when a baby is separated from its mother via a cut chord.

It is the enormous fragility that endows life with what lies outside science but is no less inherent to life itself, namely, its value. The living organism’s selfhood gives it sovereignty in the eyes of moral law. Its purpose assigns its meaning. Its complexity endows it beauty. And because life is so temporary, it is so precious.

spc1970 · Rat Trap

And for all you wisecrackers out there... I realize there may be some spelling errors

meekus · Tonight

I never claimed a baby worthy of destruction. And while I didn't mention it, abortion is a separate issue.

My source is my own opinion. That's the beauty of it. You're a Conservative who must see to believe. And yet what you see cannot be proven. You can't forget the question of souls. That has a lot to do with life, wouldn't you say?

The pictures above are two fetal human beings. They are at such an early developmental stage, the sex cannot be determined, as the necessary "parts" haven't started forming yet. Science can't even say what the sex of the child will be, only guess through a simple Punnett Square. I can't even title the fetus a male or female.

Thank you for fighting for his/her rights, and standing up for them. Even though they can't think or form an opinion, or specifically tell you when life truly began, or comprehend anything in the world about them because they don't even have sight yet, they won't be able to explain it to you because memories haven't formed yet, and they can't fight off simple diseases or battle abortion because they have no muscles or immunities or vaccinations. I thank you for protecting that "baby."

You're always saying that theologians, scientists, politicians, and blah blah blah wouldn't DARE disagree with you. How many of your scientists would disagree with you that the pictures above are of fetuses (feti?)? Whether they believe in God, or a purpose and beauty of life, or souls, I'm willing to bet most would be scared to NOT consider that little dependant child a fetus. That's what he/she is. You're giving rights to something that doesn't know what it is, because a brain hasn't completely formed.

Life: The property or quality that distinguishes living organisms from dead organisms and inanimate matter, manifested in functions such as metabolism, growth, reproduction, and response to stimuli or adaptation to the environment originating from within the organism.

Can that small mass of life reproduce? Can he/she adapt to an environment it won't see/hear/taste/touch/feel for another 8 1/2 months? This definition (courtesy Dictionary.com) is the bare bones scientific definition of life. What's left is all personal opinion and experience, which a fetus has neither of.

I saw a better "Fetus Rights" photo several days ago. It showed a fetus in a mother's womb holding a pistol.

Thank you for protecting his/her life, because it wouldn't have even been created, it won't be born, and it won't live a life because I refuse to acknowledge your opinion.

-- Edited by meekus at 03:20, 2005-10-04

spc1970 · Rat Trap

meekus wrote:

Abortion is a separate issue.

You are wrong. This discussion is at the very heart of the abortion debate. When does life begin? Is the fetus merely an extension of the mom or is it an individual? These questions are the underlying foundation for the entire pro-abortion crowd. Their entire worldview would be rendered inert if a fetus was actually called a baby.  At present they can justify abortion by dehumanizing the child... call it a woman's choice, much like its a choice to have a facelift.

My source is my own opinion.

Your opinions are your own as you say, but they can be wrong. For instance, in my opinion the moon is made of cheese. I have the right to hold that opinion but you would attack that opinion with facts that refute it. That is all I am doing here. Using facts to counteract your incorrect opinions. I am merely attempting to teach you.

You can't forget the question of souls. That has a lot to do with life, wouldn't you say?

I said that in my first post. I was merely taking the metaphysical out of the discussion so we could focus on your assertions of biological life. Stay focused Meekus.

They are at such an early developmental stage...

Your own words begin to topple your strawman. You are correct. These are photos of an early developmental stage of a human being. Much like you at the age of 5 were at another stage of development. All living organisms go through developmental stages but they are always considered the same being.

Can that small mass of life reproduce?

Yes. Asexual reproduction has happened since fertilization. But as for sexual reproduction. The answer is no. The baby cannot reproduce sexually, but then again neither can my 3 year old daughter. Does that make her a non-living, non-individual?

Can he/she adapt to an environment it won't see/hear/taste/touch/feel for another 8 1/2 months?

No, the child cannot respond to an environment that it will not experience for another 8.5 months. But it can and does respond to the environment it is currently interacting with.

It is obvious you think your opinion is strong and you are proud of it but, with nothing but a "it is true because I think it is true" mentality, it is doomed. Meekus, you will not forever be able to hide behind the viel of youth nor the excuse of unsupported opinion. People, including the ones on this board, are to smart for that.

meekus · Tonight

"You are wrong. This discussion is at the very heart of the abortion debate. When does life begin? Is the fetus merely an extension of the mom or is it an individual? These questions are the underlying foundation for the entire pro-abortion crowd. Their entire worldview would be rendered inert if a fetus was actually called a baby. At present they can justify abortion by dehumanizing the child... call it a woman's choice, much like its a choice to have a facelift."

What any woman does with her body is up to her fate with God (if that's what you believe) and up to her own judgement (reality). If a woman was raped, what if she didn't want the child? Put it up for adoption, I suppose. Then have the child roam foster care until he's 18 years old? An orphanage? The most traumatic and irreversible moments of life occur in childhood. Would you want a child to live a life like that?

If you have never had to deal with this type of situation before, then you have no right to give any argument.

"Your opinions are your own as you say, but they can be wrong. For instance, in my opinion the moon is made of cheese. I have the right to hold that opinion but you would attack that opinion with facts that refute it. That is all I am doing here. Using facts to counteract your incorrect opinions. I am merely attempting to teach you."

So can yours. That's life. That would not be an opinion. That would be false, because it has been proven to not be made of cheese. You're not using any facts because you stopped at the question of souls, where you know you can't win because there are no facts. I have enough bogus teachers as is. One can't do simple math, one has no life outside of the classroom, and one is over 80 years old. I have enough on my plate without having some blindly patriotic geezer try to shove his opinion down my throat.

"I said that in my first post. I was merely taking the metaphysical out of the discussion so we could focus on your assertions of biological life. Stay focused Meekus."

Again, because you can prove nothing else past the biological, as it may not exist. We're past biology. Let's move along.

"Your own words begin to topple your strawman. You are correct. These are photos of an early developmental stage of a human being. Much like you at the age of 5 were at another stage of development. All living organisms go through developmental stages but they are always considered the same being."

They are considered the same being, human. Specifics (fetus, baby) - which usually drive the right wing to tears when they hear of killing babies - are where the disagreements enter firsthand.

"Yes. Asexual reproduction has happened since fertilization. But as for sexual reproduction. The answer is no. The baby cannot reproduce sexually, but then again neither can my 3 year old daughter. Does that make her a non-living, non-individual? "

She's not in a womb and doesn't depend on her mother to directly feed her through a biological tube. They're both alive. But one is dependant for food from the mother. They are both individuals, but your daughter more so because she has a date of birth and has been able to adapt to the world around her for three years.

"No, the child cannot respond to an environment that it will not experience for another 8.5 months. But it can and does respond to the environment it is currently interacting with."

But won't be able to see and judge the real world (truly live) until he/she can breathe oxygen, consume food, stay warm by himself/herself, and reproduce, the biological term for a living organism. I took Bio last year, so the definition may seem new to you.

"It is obvious you think your opinion is strong and you are proud of it but, with nothing but a "it is true because I think it is true" mentality, it is doomed. Meekus, you will not forever be able to hide behind the viel of youth nor the excuse of unsupported opinion. People, including the ones on this board, are to smart for that."

I cannot prove the unprovable. Neither can you. That is the essence of an opinion. I don't hide behind a veil of youth. I wave the banner of youth proudly, and I doubt I'd have no support for my opinions if I could reach more than half a dozen people in a forum. Y

Do you doubt the intelligence of the members? I certainly don't. They can decide who they agree with. Probably you because you have more grassroots support in government and strange neo-Christian society. And I won't even say that people will ever believe what I believe, because it's pretty personal to me and I don't talk about it much. Mainly because today's youth are more impressed by popularity than politics. No matter.

spc1970 · Rat Trap

I will cease this. You are blind to the 600lb gorilla sitting in the room. I provide you with scientific fact and verifiable proof, you provide rehashed pro-abortion talking points. I show you time and time again how your opinions are based on errors, you proceed to try to explain away my evidence by point out that I'm conservative. People agree with my view not because of grassroots but because I am right on this matter. Intelligent people will see the facts and logically decide that I have the stronger arguement. I say this not to be arogant or cocky, but that is how smart people decide between two conflicting points of view. Your ideas are dangerous... to unborn children, to other young impressionable minds and to society. Your opinions cannot be supported by any facts... Your opinions are thus hollow. You obviously cannot see this. I am done with this thread. You, however, can prattle on.

meekus · Tonight

You are a conservative, and you have posted hardly any facts, or at least one to support what you say. They always fall short of what you try to prove (the unprovable). Of course you MUST be right if you're talking to someone who disagrees with you. You didn't get your way. That's life.

I hardly saw an arguement in the first place, just opinion. Like mine. It's all opinion, when a soul enters a body and life truly begins. No one knows. I don't know if you think your biology degree makes you an expert in the spiritual basis of life.

I'm dangerous? Life is dangerous. It's all a razor's edge. I'm giving people another side to the issue. How would it be if a woman weren't able to abort a fetus after she'd been raped? What if it was your wife? Your daughter? Adoption? Put the child through emotional terror? Keep the child knowing that he was never wanted by anyone?

The solution is to let a woman do what she wants with her body. If a woman's in an abortion clinic in your town right now, would you go and rush her out of the room, ahev an emergency hearing with a judge, and try to decalre Roe v. Wade unconstitutional? That's the far edge of your side of the spectrum. You're not very far from falling right off.

An opinion is not meant to be entirely fact. It's about which choice seems logical given some facts. Which way a person decides is up to them - not you. They hear you, talking about the beauty of life at early stages. I question the injection of a divine soul. There are no facts for this, and there are no true answers. You base it on logic - logic to me is how would I feel if this happened to me, or someone close to me? And the answers often conflict with different people.

That's ok. That's another part of the world, people won't always agree with you.

Or me.

I won't prattle on because no one else has shown much interest in this thread.

Hope to see you soon.

PS: YOUR gorilla is the fetus of a chimpanzee.

Tango · In the Long Grass

i hate to take sides but GO MEEKUS!