Fingers and Geldof settle out of court

Noel · Dave

Fingers and Geldof settle out of court

Mark L · Loudmouth

Great highlight, thanks Noel. You wouldn't settle out of court unless you had to?

ArrGee · Back To Boomtown

Mark L wrote:
You wouldn't settle out of court unless you had to?

mmm, sometimes the cost of going through a court case to win outweighs what you could end up winning and the risk of what it would cost if you lost. I suspect that if my net worth was around £50-£100 million and I had to pay out around £500K I would do that. Lawyers are very expensive and in my couple of dealings with them I came up against companies with far deeper pockets than mine.

Mark L · Loudmouth

ArrGee wrote:
Mark L wrote:
You wouldn't settle out of court unless you had to?
mmm, sometimes the cost of going through a court case to win outweighs what you could end up winning and the risk of what it would cost if you lost. I suspect that if my net worth was around £50-£100 million and I had to pay out around £500K I would do that. Lawyers are very expensive and in my couple of dealings with them I came up against companies with far deeper pockets than mine.

I get the economic argument, but surely that works both ways..Geldof could have afforded to defend a late onset, historic, scurrilous, mischievous claim (if that's what it was) better than I could as his pockets are much deeper than mine.

ArrGee · Back To Boomtown

Noel wrote:
any chance of Fingers ever appearing with the rest of the band?

Fingers was due to play with The Barton Rats a few years ago but the gig in question was cancelled. I suspect there is a slim chance if the stars align and they are all in the same town. But as Fingers is mostly Japan, I don't expect it. If it did happen, I suspect it would be a cameo appearance with the amp down at 5 rather than a fully fledged performance.

ArrGee · Back To Boomtown

Mark L wrote:
ArrGee wrote:
Mark L wrote:
You wouldn't settle out of court unless you had to?
mmm, sometimes the cost of going through a court case to win outweighs what you could end up winning and the risk of what it would cost if you lost. I suspect that if my net worth was around £50-£100 million and I had to pay out around £500K I would do that. Lawyers are very expensive and in my couple of dealings with them I came up against companies with far deeper pockets than mine.
I get the economic argument, but surely that works both ways..Geldof could have afforded to defend a late onset, historic, scurrilous, mischievous claim (if that's what it was) better than I could as his pockets are much deeper than mine.

Maybe, but would it be worth it? Probably have to cancel lots of engagements for the sake of winning. In my cases, which were both strong (most likely I would have won), but it would have meant flying back to the UK and losing other work. Sums involved weren't large enough to justify the battle.

Noel · Dave

This article (pre settlement May 17) goes into great detail about the figures and it's worth reading or re-reading just to show how nasty the situation was.

https://www.thesun.ie/news/959283/pianist-jonnie-fingers-claims-his-home-is-on

ArrGee · Back To Boomtown

Noel wrote:
This article (pre settlement May 17) goes into great detail about the figures and it's worth reading or re-reading just to show how nasty the situation was.
https://www.thesun.ie/news/959283/pianist-jonnie-fingers-claims-his-home-is-on

Given "Costs of the trial could be up to 1.18m" settlement seems to be the smart option.

but surely this isn't right ...

"Mr Delamare claimed that Moylett was disguising the fact he had already spent 708,000in fees and has not disclosed his true disposable income."

There was some activity in March 2018

https://intellectualpropertyblog.fieldfisher.com/2018/boomtown-rats-keyboardist-leaves-pre-trial-hearing-on-a-high-note

-- Edited by ArrGee on Monday 28th of January 2019 03:05:03 PM

ArrGee · Back To Boomtown

https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Ch/2018/893.html

Judgement on the report of Mr Guy Protheroe. I trust they considered that Geldof is a lefty and plays the guitar upside down!

Noel · Dave

Wonder how much to song has earned in royalties over the last 40 years, and has it all gone to Geldof?

Rats Fan · Never In A Million Years

I'm a songwriter and I've also worked for the Performing Rights Society. It is my best guess that Geldof took pity on Fingers and just dipped into his own pocket. It's important to note as well that claims that result in a court mandated re-assignment of authors, 99 times out of 100 only apply to future royalties. In this case, Fingers has will only earn songwriting royalties from the trial date in 2019 (not the original release date in the 70s).

Also, PRS registers a song's lyric as 50% and the vocal melody as the other 50%. The vocal melody is the only part of the music which counts according to the songwriting registry. Introductions, riffs, instrumental parts do not count. The music is the vocal melody only. (I'm not suggesting this is fair or just - just that this is the law). If Geldof arrived strumming a few chords (however basically on the guitar) and sings the lyrics to a vocal melody. The song is 100% written as far as PRS are concerned.

Fingers piano arrangement is a huge part of the success of the song. It is a fantastic piano part and is world recognisable. But PRS doesn't count that as songwriting (unfair I agree but this is the law). On top of this, judges almost always universally with old releases decide to keep the percentages as they original were because after 40 years it's very difficult to prove. I have been involved in several high profile song disputes that have been to court. The judge almost always sides to keep the status quo.

I suspect Geldof (who has deep pockets) felt bad about the thought of seeing his old bandmate lose in court. He recognised personally Fingers contribution to the Rats and this song especially and decided to help him out financially. The law would have been on Geldof's side but I think ethically Bob perhaps felt bad about his original decision not to put Fingers on the credit.

Noel · Dave

Rats Fan wrote:
I'm a songwriter and I've also worked for the Performing Rights Society. It is my best guess that Geldof took pity on Fingers and just dipped into his own pocket. It's important to note as well that claims that result in a court mandated re-assignment of authors, 99 times out of 100 only apply to future royalties. In this case, Fingers has will only earn songwriting royalties from the trial date in 2019 (not the original release date in the 70s).
Also, PRS registers a song's lyric as 50% and the vocal melody as the other 50%. The vocal melody is the only part of the music which counts according to the songwriting registry. Introductions, riffs, instrumental parts do not count. The music is the vocal melody only. (I'm not suggesting this is fair or just - just that this is the law). If Geldof arrived strumming a few chords (however basically on the guitar) and sings the lyrics to a vocal melody. The song is 100% written as far as PRS are concerned.
Fingers piano arrangement is a huge part of the success of the song. It is a fantastic piano part and is world recognisable. But PRS doesn't count that as songwriting (unfair I agree but this is the law). On top of this, judges almost always universally with old releases decide to keep the percentages as they original were because after 40 years it's very difficult to prove. I have been involved in several high profile song disputes that have been to court. The judge almost always sides to keep the status quo.
I suspect Geldof (who has deep pockets) felt bad about the thought of seeing his old bandmate lose in court. He recognised personally Fingers contribution to the Rats and this song especially and decided to help him out financially. The law would have been on Geldof's side but I think ethically Bob perhaps felt bad about his original decision not to put Fingers on the credit.

Brilliant clarification of the law pertaining to what a songwriter is entitled to. Really interesting about the vocal melody being the only part that counts re writing a song. Lots of stuff I frankly didn't know about royalty payments etc.

So much of music is trying to convey deep emotional meaning and often that is best expressed in parts of a song that are apart from the main vocal melody ie riffs, instrumental passages and breaks, musical middle eights/bridges etc.

on a slight different note I like watching YouTube videos of songs that are claimed to be riff offs of other songs.

I've always thought Stings Fields of Gold sounds suspiciously like Corn Rigs from the Wicker Man soundtrack, written by Paul Giovanni in 1973.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ryg27FqWdHA

Rats Fan · Never In A Million Years

Thank you Noel. I absolutely agree with you the piano part is an unmistakable part of 'I Don't Like Mondays'. It is a beautiful sophisticated piano arrangement. It is rather unfair that Fingers wasn't credited in the first place. Even if to the strict letter of the law he had no legal claim to co-authorship, Geldof could have recognised his contribution at the time of release. Perhaps he's making amends now.

I seem to remember (and I'm certain there are people on this forum who will know this in much more detail than I do). But I'm sure I remember hearing an interview with Geldof saying that he loosely based the melody to 'I Don't Like Mondays' on Elvis Costello's 'Oliver's Army'. You can certainly here a similarity in the shape of the two verse melodies. There's a chance I dreamed that but I think I remember hearing an interview where Geldof talked about it. The melody in 'I Don't Like Mondays' for the pre-chorus and chorus are totally different to 'Oliver's Army'. I wonder if it might prompt a reconciliation and Fingers might re-join the Rats for a guest spot like Gerry Cott did at the Roundhouse.

ArrGee · Back To Boomtown

Rats Fan wrote:
... my best guess that Geldof took pity on Fingers and just dipped into his own pocket...
The law would have been on Geldof's side but I think ethically Bob perhaps felt bad about his original decision not to put Fingers on the credit.
I wonder if it might prompt a reconciliation and Fingers might re-join the Rats for a guest spot like Gerry Cott did at the Roundhouse.

That doesn't explain why it went to court nor the subsequent sabre-rattling. If Geldof was taking pity it need never have got that far.

More likely both saw what it could ultimately cost if they lost and came to a compromise. Most likely Fingers got enough to sign a non disclosure agreement of some sort. Suspect similar occurred with the earlier case with the others.

Can't see Fingers flying in from Japan. Gerry Cott only had to come in from the outskirts of London.

Rats Fan · Never In A Million Years

The royalties on 'I Don't Like Mondays' in 2019 would be relatively modest. The co-authorship hasn't been backdated 40 years. It is from this moment only. It stands to reason Fingers would hold out hoping for a higher out of court settlement. I've worked for PRS in the claims department - on a festival main stage to an audience of around 10,000 people then a single song in live performance is not likely to generate more than £300 in total royalties (so Geldof and Fingers would get £150 each). On BBC Radio 2, it is £52.40 per 30 seconds. So a three minute song is that times 6 and divided by two because now there are two authors.

The Boomtown Rats have been performing less and this particular track isn't paid all that often on the BBC. I would suspect they each will make less than £5000 each a year as an absolute maximum from 'I Don't Like Mondays' in 2019. I don't know Fingers financial situation but this amount is hardly likely to faze Geldof at all. I suspect the public nature of the song dispute is what got Geldof's goat and he eventually realised Finger's contribution

Mark L · Loudmouth

I guess they're happier when the near-5 minute Rat Trap is played smile

Mark L · Loudmouth

I sometimes listen to a 70s Internet station .They often play Rat Trap, Mondays and occasional other tracks..wonder what they pay in royalties?

I was always unhappy with Fingers' late in the day claim and struggle to accept he was so upset with this, it took him nearly 40 years to air his grievance. The claim game has so taken hold in modern Britain now that Mondays was not the only thing brought over from America in the late 70s. I love it now when it (rarely) goes all wrong and a holiday company say turns the table and sues the 'sick' holidaymaker, producing cctv of them cavorting round the pool instead. All of sudden, insurance fraud doesn't sound like quite the good idea your mates down the pub said it would be.

ArrGee · Back To Boomtown

Mark L wrote:
I guess they're happier when the near-5 minute Rat Trap is played

That's why they fade it out. The following must have sussed it out... Queen (Bo Rap - 5:55), The Who (Won't Get Fooled Again - 8:32/Baba 5:00) and The Beatles (Hey Jude - 7:11)

ArrGee · Back To Boomtown

Mark L wrote:
I sometimes listen to a 70s Internet station .They often play Rat Trap, Mondays and occasional other tracks..wonder what they pay in royalties?
I was always unhappy with Fingers' late in the day claim and struggle to accept he was so upset with this, it took him nearly 40 years to air his grievance.

Bugger all!

It took nearly 40 years for it to go to court, but it may have been there for a long time. Fingers was part of the original action in 2005 which was settled out of court with Roberts, Crowe and Cott. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/music/4092722.stm

Mark L · Loudmouth

ArrGee wrote:
Mark L wrote:
I sometimes listen to a 70s Internet station .They often play Rat Trap, Mondays and occasional other tracks..wonder what they pay in royalties?
I was always unhappy with Fingers' late in the day claim and struggle to accept he was so upset with this, it took him nearly 40 years to air his grievance.
Bugger all!
It took nearly 40 years for it to go to court, but it may have been there for a long time. Fingers was part of the original action in 2005 which was settled out of court with Roberts, Crowe and Cott. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/music/4092722.stm

Nevertheless, I would have had a little more sympathy if he had managed to at least bring his claim in the same century that the song was a hit.

ArrGee · Back To Boomtown

Mark L wrote:
ArrGee wrote:
Mark L wrote:
I sometimes listen to a 70s Internet station .They often play Rat Trap, Mondays and occasional other tracks..wonder what they pay in royalties?
I was always unhappy with Fingers' late in the day claim and struggle to accept he was so upset with this, it took him nearly 40 years to air his grievance.
Bugger all!
It took nearly 40 years for it to go to court, but it may have been there for a long time. Fingers was part of the original action in 2005 which was settled out of court with Roberts, Crowe and Cott. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/music/4092722.stm
Nevertheless, I would have had a little more sympathy if he had managed to at least bring his claim in the same century that the song was a hit.

After 1986 when the band broke up and Fingers and Crowe formed Gung~Ho, the revenue may have only just stopped at that point, and the royalties from radio etc. probably weren't that much as The Rats would not have been played too much. From 1987 - 2003 there was just one Rats release (Loudmouth - which was half a Geldof release and used for self promotion) so again the revenue to that point might not have been particularly significant then. Only in 2003-2005 with the Best of and reissues would there have been an increase in revenue that may have made the others think, weren't we supposed to get a cut?

From the outside looking in, it appears Crowe, Roberts and Cott settled sometime around 2009-2011 prior to the reunion, but Fingers hadn't. Quite possibly the band reforming had left him in isolation and it took a while to bring the case.

ArrGee · Back To Boomtown

Rats Fan wrote:
The royalties on 'I Don't Like Mondays' in 2019 would be relatively modest. The co-authorship hasn't been backdated 40 years. It is from this moment only. It stands to reason Fingers would hold out hoping for a higher out of court settlement. I've worked for PRS in the claims department - on a festival main stage to an audience of around 10,000 people then a single song in live performance is not likely to generate more than £300 in total royalties (so Geldof and Fingers would get £150 each). On BBC Radio 2, it is £52.40 per 30 seconds. So a three minute song is that times 6 and divided by two because now there are two authors.
The Boomtown Rats have been performing less and this particular track isn't paid all that often on the BBC. I would suspect they each will make less than £5000 each a year as an absolute maximum from 'I Don't Like Mondays' in 2019. I don't know Fingers financial situation but this amount is hardly likely to faze Geldof at all. I suspect the public nature of the song dispute is what got Geldof's goat and he eventually realised Finger's contribution

I was thinking they can't be played that often, but £50 for 30 seconds? Wow!

In the last month I Don't Like Mondays only has three radio plays outside BBC in the UK. Rat Trap is deservedly more popular with over ten times as many plays.

http://comparemyradio.com/artists/Boomtown_Rats/tracks

7 different tracks played this year on BBC Radio

https://www.bbc.co.uk/music/artists/47aa3e97-f623-4472-8e54-da886c6a6e20

Say a nice round 50 plays with songs averaging 4 minutes, at top rate that is about 400 * £50 so about £20K/month which seems like quite a lot. And that is just UK. No wonder Fingers went to court. However, he must be hacked off with them playing Rat Trap all the time

ArrGee · Back To Boomtown

A bit dated but rate in 2013 is quoted here as around £120 for 3 minutes split between songwriters, label and performers,

https://www.theguardian.com/music/shortcuts/2013/jul/15/spotify-musicians-money-thom-yorke

Radio: A play for a three-minute song on Radio 2 generates £59.73 (collected by PRS for Music) for the songwriters, and a similar figure (collected by PPL) is split between the label and the performing artists.

ArrGee · Back To Boomtown

BBC are paying an outrageous amount! They should close down BBC Radio. Especially Radio 1. Would save a few quid on the licence fee. Explains why Radio X have Chris Moyles constantly talking for an hour in the morning.

https://www.quora.com/How-much-are-music-artists-paid-in-Royalties-for-each-song-played-on-radio

Below are the average figures for PRS and PPL royalties for a few different stations. The PRS figures have come directly from the PRS as of December 2013, and the PPL royalties are averages based on what our artists have received in the past.

BBC Radio 1

PRS average payment per minute £14.91

PPL average payment per play £37.76

BBC Radio 2

PRS average payment per minute £21.77

PPL average payment per play £82.07

BBC 6 Music

PRS average payment per minute £4.55

PPL average payment per play £8.06

BBC Introducing

PRS average payment per minute £0.74

PPL average payment per play £0.93

XFM

PRS average payment per minute £0.22

PPL average payment per play £0.92

ArrGee · Back To Boomtown

ArrGee wrote:

7 different tracks played this year on BBC Radio

https://www.bbc.co.uk/music/artists/47aa3e97-f623-4472-8e54-da886c6a6e20
Say a nice round 50 plays with songs averaging 4 minutes, at top rate that is about 400 * £50 so about £20K/month which seems like quite a lot. And that is just UK. No wonder Fingers went to court. However, he must be hacked off with them playing Rat Trap all the time

All the plays are regional suggesting they would get far less than £50 for 30 seconds. Looking at XFM figures of around £1.50/play, it looks more like £75/month, which with all the splitting between label, performer and songwriters should just about get Fingers a flat white at the local coffee shop!

Mark L · Loudmouth

Interesting

Mark L · Loudmouth

Mark L · Loudmouth

This great 70s station occasionally plays singles from 69 or 80 if they think they're good enough..this one definitely is!

Another contribution to coffee for Fingers lol

-- Edited by Mark L on Thursday 21st of February 2019 01:48:15 AM

ArrGee · Back To Boomtown

Mark L wrote:
This great 70s station occasionally plays singles from 69 or 80 if they think they're good enough..this one definitely is!
Another contribution to coffee for Fingers lol

Unfortunately Fingers didn't get a song writing credit, so just adam's ale off the back of that. Geldof must hate it when they play She's So Modern or Banana Republic having to split the take. And as for Like Clockwork and a three way split...

... probably the case was settled when they realised they were arguing over less than £1k/annum. Will be interesting to see the song writing credits on the new album. Probably why it has taken two years to release, they are still negotiating. For reference known song writers for Ratsh!t ep Eponymous song - Geldof/Briquette, Back To Boomtown - Geldof. The other 2, unknown, probably everyone is denying they wrote them.

PS - What are you using to listen to internet radio? That looks like a 1970s AV receiver throwback! You must have bad insomnia up all night listening to 70s Pirate Radio. By contrast I fell asleep watching The Walking Dead at about 10pm. zzzzz And still felt like a zombie this morning.

-- Edited by ArrGee on Thursday 21st of February 2019 10:13:07 AM

Mark L · Loudmouth

A Roberts STREAM 93i Portable Radio which offers 1000's of radio stations around the world...... I get by on around 7 hours sleep and have some holiday this week so whilst not quite Up All Night, it wasn't lights out until 2am meaning I got to hear SLAY unexpectedly which is often a great way with a Rats song.

Mark L · Loudmouth

ArrGee wrote:
Mark L wrote:
This great 70s station occasionally plays singles from 69 or 80 if they think they're good enough..this one definitely is!
Another contribution to coffee for Fingers lol
Unfortunately Fingers didn't get a song writing credit, so just adam's ale off the back of that. Geldof must hate it when they play She's So Modern or Banana Republic having to split the take. And as for Like Clockwork and a three way split...

I realise ..... just a little humour rather than a precise legal statement over the question of Royalties apportionment! Funnily enough Pirate hardly ever play Like Clockwork but did the other morning followed by Mondays the next day ... which was a Monday. They quite like the Rats on this station.

ArrGee · Back To Boomtown

Mark L wrote:
ArrGee wrote:
Mark L wrote:
This great 70s station occasionally plays singles from 69 or 80 if they think they're good enough..this one definitely is!
Another contribution to coffee for Fingers lol
Unfortunately Fingers didn't get a song writing credit, so just adam's ale off the back of that. Geldof must hate it when they play She's So Modern or Banana Republic having to split the take. And as for Like Clockwork and a three way split...
I realise ..... just a little humour rather than a precise legal statement over the question of Royalties apportionment! Funnily enough Pirate hardly ever play Like Clockwork but did the other morning followed by Mondays the next day ... which was a Monday. They quite like the Rats on this station.

I reckon I heard The Rats once in the last seven years on the radio. Mostly because I listen to Radio X who never play them, but even when I have Radio 2 and Absolute on, I don't hear them.

Mark L · Loudmouth

ArrGee wrote:
Mark L wrote:
ArrGee wrote:
Mark L wrote:
This great 70s station occasionally plays singles from 69 or 80 if they think they're good enough..this one definitely is!
Another contribution to coffee for Fingers lol
Unfortunately Fingers didn't get a song writing credit, so just adam's ale off the back of that. Geldof must hate it when they play She's So Modern or Banana Republic having to split the take. And as for Like Clockwork and a three way split...
I realise ..... just a little humour rather than a precise legal statement over the question of Royalties apportionment! Funnily enough Pirate hardly ever play Like Clockwork but did the other morning followed by Mondays the next day ... which was a Monday. They quite like the Rats on this station.
I reckon I heard The Rats once in the last seven years on the radio. Mostly because I listen to Radio X who never play them, but even when I have Radio 2 and Absolute on, I don't hear them.

Mark L · Loudmouth

They're on again going into the 1pm news!

Mark L · Loudmouth

Mixes well with their dramatic news jingle on the last note!

Pirate play them a fair bit

OK ArrGee this time definitely something towards Fingers' next coffee smile

ArrGee · Back To Boomtown

Mark L wrote:
Mixes well with their dramatic news jingle on the last note!
Pirate play them a fair bit
OK ArrGee this time definitely something towards Fingers' next coffee

What would that station pay? 162,000 listeners vs XFM (now Radio X) with 1,648,000 weekly listeners

As Radio X pay around £1.50 a song based on above, let's say 15p for Pirate FM. So with 7.5p to the song writers, that's 3.7p to Fingers. Need another 69 plays for the flat white! (Approx. cost £2.60) Maybe more expensive in Japan...

ArrGee · Back To Boomtown

Fingers and Geldof need to know they are due a cut from these shenanigans. Eintracht Frankfurt supporters had better stump up! Maybe they could see their way to a caffè latte for yours truly off the back of it

http://africa.espn.com/football/german-bundesliga/story/3779679/fans-try-to-disrupt-tv-broadcast-in-protest-against-monday-night-bundesliga-games

Bundesliga supporters have protested against Monday night fixtures since they returned to the schedule with a new TV contract in the 2017-18 season. In early 2018, Eintracht Frankfurt supporters were the first to protest ahead of and during the first Monday night game of the current TV deal. They left the terraces before kick-off and surrounded the pitch to protest with the stadium loudspeakers playing The Boomtown Rats song "I Don't Like Mondays" in the build-up to the match.

Mark L · Loudmouth

Mark L · Loudmouth

The three way split kicks in this Saturday. The alarm was set for 8am. What a fine way to wake up.

ArrGee · Back To Boomtown

Fingers and Geldof earned a few quid from the season 3 episode 1 of Handmaid's Tale, however House on Fire/House Burned Down... may have been more appropriate.

https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2019/jun/09/the-handmaids-tale-recap-season-three-episode-one-is-that-hope-were-feeling

I very much enjoyed Offreds Burn, mother****er, burn, as the Boomtown Rats struck up I Dont Like Mondays and the Waterford house crumbled behind her. Everything is destroyed: the Scrabble set that Fred used to groom Offred for extra-curricular sex, the decanter of whiskey he plied her with, the oak-panelled bookcases, all turned to ashes