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Post Info TOPIC: Tory Bob fights for civil liberties


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Tory Bob fights for civil liberties
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Bob joins ex-Tory MP David Davies to fight for civil liberties.  He believes that our civil liberties in the UK are being eroded by the government:

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/showbiz/article-23507846-details/Bob+Geldof+to+back+David+Davis+in+'civil+liberties'+by-election/article.do

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Jules wrote:

Bob joins ex-Tory MP David Davies to fight for civil liberties.  He believes that our civil liberties in the UK are being eroded by the government:

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/showbiz/article-23507846-details/Bob+Geldof+to+back+David+Davis+in+'civil+liberties'+by-election/article.do



The same Geldof whose truant alert system bagged him a load of dosh a few months ago at the end of last year is it? 

http://www.publictechnology.net/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=7090



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My school uses that "truant alert system" and it is invaluable and well worth it. Parents like it and want to keep it. Schools like it.  If it had been in place , it may, or may not, have saved the life of a little boy near here who was grabbed just after arriving at school and murdered. The system was Bob's idea, when Pixie started secondary school and had to travel accross London and he worried that she would get there all right. Can you blame him??????  London? It is now being used around the globe. I do not see how it infringes any child's civil liberties.

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Scottie wrote:

My school uses that "truant alert system" and it is invaluable and well worth it. Parents like it and want to keep it. Schools like it.  If it had been in place , it may, or may not, have saved the life of a little boy near here who was grabbed just after arriving at school and murdered. The system was Bob's idea, when Pixie started secondary school and had to travel accross London and he worried that she would get there all right. Can you blame him??????  London? It is now being used around the globe. I do not see how it infringes any child's civil liberties.



So tracking the movement of children is OK.  What if they extend it to adults?  What if when we are born they stick a tracking device in us ?

I don't see how this would have stopped this murder, in the same way that I don't see how ID cards will prevent terrorism.

Any recording of movement is, in my opinion, an abuse of my liberty.

Wow, six question marks on a question.

And he need not worry too much about where his daughters are, just follow the photographers.



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V Deep

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I can see both sides of this argument.It is a tough one.I agree with ArrGee on the ID cards.

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You are right, it may not have saved the boy, but it would have alerted the police much much earlier, and as the guy was known to them , it may have helped. I am not talking about tracking children tagging them , just making sure they are at school when they should be, that is all. Child safety is the most inportant thing is it not???????? (look I dared to use 8 this time, my goodness I am getting brave) Schools are legally in locum parentis and Head teachers can, and have been taken to court for corporate negligence if a child leaves school of their own accord and something happens to them. Most parents I know would be sick with worry if they had no idea where their kids were and I am talking about kids as young as 4 here. I know there will always be some who dont give a damn sadly.
We will have to agree to differ on this one, Arr  Gee. It is something I feel very strongly about. The truancy call is a good thing, in the opinion of all schools who use it and child safety is paramount over other issues.
I am not getting into a head to head with you over this.  I have stated my views, as you have. I will not comment again on this subject.

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The main issue Bob is campaigning on in this is holding terrorist for 42 days without trial. That is very different from the debate about tracking children is an infringement on their liberties v their safety or stops/deters truancy. Although, I can sort of see why ArrGee is using this argument.

It would be quite interesting to have a debate about infringement v protection, but maybe we shouldn't go thereweirdface.

-- Edited by Jules at 13:48, 2008-07-05

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ADMIN: Edited to give original article source, where there are a very large number of interesting comments.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2008/07/10/do1001.xml

This is not a normal by-election but it is extraordinary. The people of this area are being asked to consider not the merits or otherwise of the government or opposition, much less the competing policies of the different parties. Not even the beauty parade of  eager candidates, who looking at David and the motley assemblage of other candidates, once again reminds me of that great truth that politics is merely showbusiness for ugly people.

You are not even being asked to address the great financial issues and otherwise that are beginning to bite at this region and the country. Rising food, fuel, energy and inflation costs. House prices and manufacturing down. It doesnt look or feel good out there. But that is not for this election. That is for another day. 

This time you are being asked about something much more fundamental. More profound even than the momentary economic cycle and its impact on those who live here . This time youre being asked to think about who we are. What we stand for and will we continue to live and be the country and people built by generations and institutions before. This is fight about the legal boundaries of the state and how much that state can and should remove of our liberties before it fundamentally changes the nature of who and what we are.

As a voting issue it may appear less immediate than the current financial downturn and therefore less compelling. Given the position of the other main parties the results may seem a foregone conclusion and the exercise of the vote tiresome, the sheer drag of having to go to the town, village or church hall or school to exercise your rights seems unnecessary. Perhaps then a vast apathy sets in at the seemingly huge vagueness of it all. This time there will be no debate about the standard of living but rather but rather standards we choose to live by Maybe you accept the official panicky newspaper and political establishment line that its all a nonsense, a hopelessly quixotic or principled or opportunistic waste of time.  That would be a terrible mistake.

I will argue that this time you must come out in more numbers than ever because this time the issue is more vital than even our immediate food bills. This time uniquely you are being asked to decide about what kind of people we are and what kind of country we wish to live in. Youre being asked to vote about us and you may never get to vote on something so profoundly fundamental again.

Famous defenders of liberty have walked the streets of Hull before and many fine words have been spoken in this very room so

Let us be grand for once then, for we talk of great subjects. Let us ask what is the point of England now that Parliament, whose primary purpose is to defend the liberties of the people have  so gratuitously, so wantonly, so casually betrayed that trust and taken from us that same liberty which above all else defines this country and its constitution, and that which has been its greatest gift to the world its freedom, its tolerances, its civilisation which William Wilberforce so forcefully argued from this town so many centuries ago.Melville claimed for America that it bears the Ark of the liberties of the world. It could be better said of that Britain which invented and codified those freedoms.

Are Magna Carta, and Habeas Corpus not to mention the Anti-Slavery laws, to be traduced  in one brief sad moment of political expediency. When a 800 years ago Britons told the state in words that still ring true and through the ages

To no man will we deny, To no man will we delay, Justice and Right

42 days detention denies and delays Justice and Right. It is a clear breach of  ancient right, of Magna Carta itself.

So what great existential threat does this country now face that did not face our forefathers of the past 1000 years. What is so grave the emergency now that neither civil war nor world war nor various terrorisms were considered so dangerous to our security that our oldest statutes -and few have lasted the 400 years relevance of habeas corpus - could be upended for such a hapnworth of momentary contemporary panic. If authority is to be respected it must be just. When it is not, then the greatest threat to that authority is its own instinct to authoritarianism.

These new security measures, these new limitations on our liberties are not the thin end of the wedge Were way past that now. This is now, already, the bulkier mid way point of that authoritarian block. For we have in the past few years so mauled our ancient defended rights, rights for which bloody battles were fought and heroes lived and died for, as to seriously consider whether the constitution is today much more than a cartoon of its essential meaning. And what moral authority resides any longer in a lawmaking body that acts against the liberties of its own people? Is it not true that the willingness to use intolerable means to achieve impossible ends shows the political mind at its most deluded? 

Meanwhile our supine press gulled by political complicity, lull the population to apathy by banging on with their trivial irrelevancies while the constitution is quietly turned aside. Shame on them. Alas they are shameless.

What terrorizes the terrorists is our civilization. What those unthinking fools of fundamentalism fear most are the very freedoms our representatives strip from us. Essentially this war on terroris a conflict waged against Islamist forces that claim to reject the Enlightenment. If that is so, then how can we ever succeed if we side with our opponents in rejecting those same ideals? Every moment we are spied on by the invisible watchers. Every time that we are recorded and monitored at every turn, on every purchase. Every time we are mandatorially logged, noted, tagged and followed on databanks and files because it is in our best interest They win. And every time we accept it, we lose. We must not hold this attitude of passive acceptance to these restraints on justice, rights and liberties that ultimately amounts to nothing more than complicity with intolerance.

Why should I carry an ID card? I own my identity not them.  Why should I have to identify myself to the state? How dare they demand I identify myself? To whom am I identifying myself and for what? Spain, France and Germany have had identity cards for decades and have more or less the same levels of crime as us. So why insist on them. The war on terror is no answer. Indeed there will soon be a brisk business in false British cards and more seriously they didnt stop the bombers in Germany or Spain.

It is of course almost comically Orwellian to trot out that comprehensively stupid, complacent and absurd excuse of the natural authoritarian  The classic  Only the guilty need be afraid line. And how sickening to hear it in England. Only the guilty need be afraid. Really? This repulsive expression beloved of tabloid and home secretary alike has at least got the virtue that it is demonstrably false.

Shall we say it to the innocent men of Forest Gate, already shot then banged up and subsequently released without charge.

Shall we say it to the demonstrators going about their legally permitted democratic business who are roughed up, abused and put away.

Say it to me that when you are lifted from the street, incarcerated for 42 days without knowing why, while your boss considers his and your position, your family cower in fear and dismay and your friends and community shun you.

Tell them that when you are released, as innocent as when you went in and try vainly to return to the life stripped from you.

Tell that to the Gestapo-like anonymous, faceless accuser whom you well never have to encounter or challenge.

Tell that to the judge, for that other ancient right of been judged by your peers in jury is gradually removed

No ladies and gentlemen in this world of spies, snitches, cameras, files and databanks the state knows all our sad, shameful little private secrets. Like threatening gangsters they know who we are and they know where we live. Not Big Brother, this is Big Britain. It is not simply about the big issues. This is also about the liberty of the ordinary person to have an ordinary life and not feel oppressed  - the everyday small liberties that affect us all. When RIPA, the law that allows  councils to authorise surveillance and to get hold of your phone records, e-mails and website usage was enacted 8 years ago, 9 organisations including the police, security and revenue services were allowed to use it.  Today there are 786 more agencies added -  including all local authorities, police forces and bodies, the Financial Services Authority and the Ambulance service.  In 2006 these bodies made 1000 applications A DAY to use these powers! They will say If you dont do anything wrong why worry? Rather you should worry precisely because you do nothing wrong. They must have no right to spy on your ability to live a good life. And when we finally become afraid to say what we think, it is one step nearer to that most awful condition of all being afraid of what TO think!. Only the guilty need be afraid Afraid not.  In this world it is only the innocent need be afraid. For the state has assumed our guilt already. We have all become suspects. We have become guilty till proven innocent.

What lies behind all of this, this perversion of the British idea?

From 2000 to today, incarceration without charge and without recourse to justice has gone from 5 days to 7 to 28 to 42. Foreigners may be imprisoned indefinitely on national sercurity grounds. Detention is based on secret intelligence and suspicion. There is no criminal charge and no trial. Our very own Guantanamo.  Terrorism stop and search powers are used widely and routinely including against that elderly man who had the temerity to heckle Jack Straw. Local councils snoop and spy and threaten old people and others over litter and wheelie bins. Why? It is true that most people want security rather than liberty. But then as that unlikely sage Dick Cheney (and he should know) said It is easy to take Liberty for granted when you have never had it taken from you.

It is our complacency that lets them get away with it. It is our apathy that we must fear.

But are we really so threatened in the UK, that we must uniquely introduce the most swingeing and illiberal precautions.

The United States, which unlike us, genuinely feels itself at war, under siege and attack  has an absolute limit of 2 days before detainess are brought before a judge and that judge being presented with evidence. Last week the supreme court held the government to be in contempt for suspending the rights of the Guantanamo. residents to fair justice.

In Ireland even at the height of the IRA terror campaign the limit was 7 days

Australia only 60 miles from the most populous Muslim nation and the victim of its own bomb horrors has a maximum of 12 days.

Spain with its huge north African Muslim population and the victim of the worst European bombing outrage is 5 days maximum. Yet all the bombers were cught and tried or killed themselves.

Italy with its 1970s red brigade terror and its large African population has a maximum of 4 days.

Germany with its giant millions strong Turkish population and during its murderous Baader Meinhof rampage has 2 days.

Russia with its Islamic Chechnyan rebels, its war and outrages has 5 days maximum.

It goes on. What is wrong with us. Have we lost our confidence, our stoicism, our bravery and dignity, sang-froid and upper lip. No, I dont think so, not if the great awful dignity of the victims families are anything to go by. Or the magnificent and traditional response of the capitol with that very British attribute of getting on with it. Not us then. Is Parliament afraid? Apparently not. MI5? They say not. So why imprison people on suspicion, without charge, without evidence or trial for 42 days? How very, very unBritish.

Let me be clear. I am not complacent by the threat or the scale of it facing us. But the government has presented no case that is even remotely convincing for the consequent and growing loss of civil liberty. As Burke said The people never give up their liberty but under some delusion These measures are simply political and designed to make the government seem strong on terrorism and the opposition weak. But even their most senior members have spoken out against this law. The Home Affairs committee came out against the proposal in December. The former Attorney General and the former Lord Chancellor are against it. John Major is against it. Even Jacqui Smith has had to admit that MI bloody5 didnt ask for it!

Detention without trial is constitutionally repulsive. It is almost an oxymoron. A legal illegality. A form of legal bullying. It is to view justice through the wrong end of the telescope. It is portrayed as a necessary weapon in the states anti-terror armoury but in what new capacity? Perhaps they believe it has some merit in being an ill-conceived, criminally stupid and clumsily inept attempt to cow or scare the fantastically deluded and unreasonable who are therefore, by definition, incapable of that sort of fear anyway. If you are intent on blowing yourself up, a spell at her majestys pleasure probably constitutes an irritating delay in the inevitable, rather than a panicked repudiation of jihadist ambition.   

What it most definitely is however is counterproductive. Because it is unjust the law simply becomes more grist to the terrorist mill. Indeed it becomes their success, for they have succeeded in taking from us part of the very  freedom they so despise. Add to that the rather alarming fact that the experts have already told us these measures can never prevent another 9/11, 7/11, Spanish train or Bali disco bombing. If anything it will simply fuel the flames of resentment.

What the terrorists are bewildered by and truly frightened of is the very thing this law rejects reason, values, logic, liberty and law that enshrines, encapsulates and articulates our freedom. That is the Britishness that John Major, Gordon Brown and others find so hard to define. It is the coherent idea that  constitutes itself into an inchoate feeling and sense of pride in place. It is what that great defender of Justice Rumpole of the Bailey called the Golden Thread that runs through British justice.This war on terror is a conflict waged against Islamist forces that claim to reject the Enlightenment. If that is so then how can we ever succeed if we side with our opponents in rejecting those same ideals.

Let us be clear then. This is not security we are being offered, this is government demanding freedom from the constraints that have developed over many centuries to curb the exercise of power. This is a type of illiberal democracy where elections take place against a background of diminished freedom. Ben Franklin said that they who can give up liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.

I was told that David Davis was out on a limb on this one. Shamefully that is true. But it is the right limb to be out on. And it is a limb I am proud to join him on. It is also the limb that William Wilberforce climbed out and perched himself upon in this very town.  When I think of this area therefore I think of this mans and this areas struggle against injustice, the rights of the unlawfully chained and those denied their liberty. This is not the grotesquerie of slavery and it would be wrong to conflate the two. But it is about justice, it is about liberty, it is about your rights. It is about Magna Carta, and what Britain is, was and must continue to be.  It is against the whole flabby, conforming, brainwashed, gullible, witless crap of it all.

This is the only place that uniquely in this election has been given the chance and honour to speak out again for all of us. To speak out on behalf of justice versus intolerance. To whistleblow. To firewatch against unthinking power .To speak about an idea of right and liberty under the law. To vote for an idea of life itself.  THE idea of Britain. Tory, Lib Dem, Labour who cares  - clamber out on this limb with us, for its where we all belong. Turn out hugely and thank God that you are in a country that is still free to do so. "

Ladies and Gentlemen. Liberty is always dangerous, but it is the safest thing we have.





-- Edited by ArrGee at 10:14, 2008-07-11

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Jules wrote:

The main issue Bob is campaigning on in this is holding terrorist for 42 days without trial.




IF that was the only issue that terrorists could be held without charge for 42 days, then I would not suuport it.  I don't think it is unreasonable to spend up to 42 days gathering evidence before charges are made, especially in cases of international terrorism.  The problem I have is that this would apply to all offences, as is already the case with the spying introduced to combat terrorism, but used for minor offences, many of which are not even criminal.

At present the Police can charge suspects, and the courts can have them held in remand until their cases come to court.

My concern is all the other civil liberties that have been tossed aside down the years, and I agree with most of what Geldof says.  The amount of data the state and corporations collect and hold are incredible.  In fact, they aid criminals.  Identity theft is easy thanks to this wholesale collection of data.  They monitor forums like this.  Everything.  The only thing you can be grateful for is that most states and corporations are pretty clueless when it comes to dealing with all this data, but they will get better, and before you know it, you'll be invoiced for every minor indicretion.  A parking fine here, dropping a bit of litter there, pissing in the bushes elsewhere.

Now people shouldn't break the law, but can anyone honestly say they have never done anything wrong?  In fact, many people unwittingly break the law constantly.  And the US courts have decided that all of you who watch You Tube will have your details sent to Viacom.

Personally I think David Davis has taken a stand on the wrong issue.  If he had done this when ID cards were proposed then I'd have backed him, but this action will be ineffective.


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The biggest Geldof fan in the world, bar none!

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Hmm, yes had only read a bit of it before posting.

Not sure I agree on the terrorist part, think I err on Bob's side.  Although, it is very tricky to find a fair and reasonable approach, which also gives the police the necessary time to gather information.

I agree with you and Bob about the information collected by the state - and I also believe that this is just another way that criminals to steal identity.  It is simply inventing more ways for them to do it!

There were other campaigns around re ID cards, although David Davis wasn't in on that.  Seems odd that he suddenly decided to do this now, this far along.

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A bit more about this:

http://eursoc.com/news/fullstory.php/aid/2595/Sir_Bob_On_Liberty.html



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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/2284314/Haltemprice-and-Howden-by-election-results.html

Ultimately what did David Davis prove? He got 5,000 votes less, the turnout was less than half that of the last general election. If anything all he proved there is a lot of apathy on this issue, which is the problem.

In the recent Henley by-election the turnout was only down around 25% (a very safe seat) and in Crewe & Nantwich was almost the same as the general election.

I'm not too surprised, after all, everyone got fobbed off by Blair when over 28,000 (one of the largest petitions at the times) petitioned to scrap the proposed introduction of ID cards.

So remember how much Blair says they will cost and how they will cut crime after their introduction and see if he is right.

http://www.number10.gov.uk/output/Page10987.asp

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how about every country cut all the crime. If they do that we would have less of it.



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