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Mary of the 4th Form

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edinburgh
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i know its a touchy subject but who is going to edinburgh? I know i am becasue i feel i can make difference.

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Banana Republic

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um...how exactly?


Not like the G8 members will actually be anywhere near there (Gleneagles is about 40 miles further north).


Could you not donate the money you'd use to travel there etc to a charity instead.


Would be more beneficial and prevent anarchy on the streets of Edinburgh (where some people actually have to work that day - shock I know!).


Or you could forward some money to Edinburgh council to clear up the mess left by all those people arriving here (with many having no place to stay).


If you DO decide to come (please don't), can you AT LEAST volunteer to clean up the crap left by your fellow "protesters" - You could give blood for the local hospital as they will probably run short (as there WILL be injuries if that many people arrive here at the same time)


or clean the portaloos (next to them) as there were enough ordered for 100,000 people but Edinburgh is having problems locating enough for the 900,000 other people due. Can you hold your bladder for a few days please!


Just one more thought, do you think Bob will be sleeping in a doorway having been crushed..unlikely, he'll be in the Balmoral hotel looking out his penthouse suite watching you poor fools down below....



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The biggest Geldof fan in the world, bar none!

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No, unfortunately I won't be able to get the time off work and it just isn't practical for me to get there. I'll be there in spirit.

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Mary of the 4th Form

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your very quick to have ago. I have volunteered to help steward and clean up thank you. Would you be having a go like this if it was some where else in the country?

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House on Fire

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I went to Edinbugh once.  It was cold.

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Dave

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Alison, I don't think there's a need to be cynical.


Many people see this in a broader context. It's about more than "donating money" and about more than tax payers and someone who'll have to clean up after some hundred thousands of people have messed up the town... What's a tax in comparison to the amounts of money that the world leaders should spare for poor countries?


Your fear (understandable) is that there will be violence and accidents. But it doesn't need Bob Geldof to get the real troublemakers to Edinburgh. They'll be there anyway, or they won't, regardless of what Bob Geldof says. The people Bob Geldof is trying to make aware and mobilize is "normal" people who don't want violence. They want to make a point by being there, by showing their governments they find it unfair and wrong what's happening.


>Not like the G8 members will actually be anywhere near there (Gleneagles is about 40 miles further north).<


So what. Its not about touching them or seeing them. If a million people gather some 40 miles from the G8 members, then they'll know.


>Just one more thought, do you think Bob will be sleeping in a doorway having been crushed..unlikely, he'll be in the Balmoral hotel looking out his penthouse suite watching you poor fools down below....<


That's so cynical, sorry. If you want to be taken seriously here and get your point accross, you'll have to think of something better...


Moley Mole, I'm not going. I'd like to go, but I'd be travelling from another country, and I have two small children.



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Banana Republic

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In response to Moley's comment about "if it were held anywhere else" then yes, I'd still have concerns for people's safety and the mess left. I appreciate you offering to clean up and steward...I really hope there is no trouble and that everyone that does come has a good time.


As being cynical..perhaps, but I believe Bob is irresponsible inviting that many people to a city that simply can't cope with those numbers. He doesn't live here...I do, and I KNOW what it's like to be squashed on Princes Street.


I attended the first few New Year celebrations (before they limited the numbers) and was caught at the bottom of Hanover Street by a wave of people being pushed up against the shop windows as there wasn't enough room for all to pass. It was one of the most frightening experiences I've ever had. There was a boy of about 10 next me with his Dad and the look of utter terror on both their faces was not nice. We managed to push the boy above our heads and pass him over to a policeman who carried him on his shoulders to safety but potentially it could have been very serious as he was having difficulty breathing. I dread a repeat of those days...That night there was about 290,000 or so...no where near the 1 million that Bob has urged to come.


I'm sure that 99% of those that will attend will do so peacefully and with the right intent BUT there will be that 1% who will be there to create utter hell for the others.


Approximatelty 4 years ago at the Bank of Scotland festival fireworks, a group of youths thought it would be "fun" to slash the legs of the spectators standing on the Mound (leading up to the castle). As it was busy, most people didn't notice anything had happened till they saw the blood. I can't recall exactly how many people attended A&E that night but I'm sure those people wouldn't like to see it repeated...it only takes a small minority of individuals to start a panic and the pushing to start. Remember Hynsel?


The A&E department is no longer in the centre of Edinburgh - it's now out by the bypass near Little France. So, if you are seriously injured, it will take longer for them to reach you and get you out to the hospital. Chances are, you might not make it...that many people WILL congest the streets resulting in difficulties for the emergency services reaching those in distress in time.


I personally don't work in the centre of Edinburgh (thankfuly) but spare a thought for those that do...shopworkers, banking staff etc that will find it almost impossible to get to work that day. They are merely doing their jobs but may find their place of work closed (with the hatches firmly lowered). Some will get paid regardless, others will be forced to take annual leave but there will be some who will be paid nothing...hardly fair (those people won't earn big wages). Bank staff and McD staff will be in the line of fire...broken windows equals flying glass. Do they deserve that? Hardly.  


So, I make no apologies for my comments. Deaths and injury in Edinburgh will not help those in Africa..by all means protest, stand for election if you think you aren't being heard (something BOB could do and try and sort the problem with those that make the decisions). Write to your MP, MSP or whoever (BUSH, BLAIR etc) but please, don't come to Edinburgh that week in July. Watch the concert on the TV and donate the money you would have used to come here directly to charity (and reduce the environmental inpact flying, trains, buses or Boats will have - something Bob doesn't seem to care two hoots about!).


Us Scottish folk aren't being killjoys, we just don't want people dying on our streets.



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Banana Republic

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Just understand the impact this will have on local businesses;


http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=620842005 


 


 



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Banana Republic

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Slashing of legs in Edinburgh during festival - report
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Firework rampage (taken from Evening News Website for Sept 2001)

KAREN RICE



A GANG of 14 Edinburgh teenagers have been reported to the procurator fiscal in connection with a series of attacks during the city’s Festival Fireworks police revealed today.


During one attack an 18-year-old man was left fighting for his life. The boy and girl gang - some as young as 14 - spread terror attacking people with knives, including a nine-inch Rambo-style weapon.


It is thought some of the gang, which includes three girls and 11 boys, may be prosecuted for attempted murder. One of the young thugs stabbed the 18-year-old in the chest after he went to the aid of another man during the "steaming" rampage on September 1.


The man was stabbed four times and needed emergency surgery. Police said he was lucky to be alive.


Its claimed the gang, who police say are all from the Niddrie Mains and Craigmillar areas, punched and kicked revellers causing terror as they made their way through the crowd of spectators.


It is thought they attacked at least 13 people at random and the violence marred a night of enjoyment for many revellers among the 250,000 crowd.


Today, a police spokesman said members of the group faced a range of charges from assault, robbery and theft to attempted murder after a lengthy police investigation. A report has been submitted to the procurator fiscal who will decide what charges the group face.


A spokeswoman for Lothian and Borders Police said: "A large number of youths have been reported to the procurator fiscal in connection with a number of incidents which occurred on the night of the Festival Fireworks on September 1."


In the aftermath of the attacks, police revealed that a nine-inch blade was one of at least five knives being carried by the gang. The first incident of the night of September 1 was a terrifying attack by the gang on a group of three teenage girls in Holyrood Park.


The girls aged 15 and 16 were surrounded by the gang, who began swearing at them before punching and kicking them, leaving one 16-year-old in hospital with a suspected broken jaw.


Police said the gang carried out at least three attacks in the park.


From there, police have reports of the mob making its way up the Cowgate or Royal Mile to the Lawnmarket, causing havoc as they went.


Further assaults took place in Drummond Street, South College Street, Teviot Place and Nicolson Street as the gang went on an uncontrolled violence spree.


In one terrifying incident, a group of girls from the gang surrounded a car outside the KFC restaurant in Nicolson Street.


With the driver and passengers inside, they broke into the car and made off with personal items.


Staff at the KFC restaurant were so alarmed by the gang’s violence that they set off the store’s restaurant’s panic alarm.


From the Lawnmarket, they made their way to the Bridges, where the alleged assault and stabbing took place.


The 18-year-old good Samaritan was stabbed once in the stomach and suffered other stab wounds. The man was stabbed, stamped on and kicked during the attack.


He was taken to the intensive care unit of the ERI where he made a good recovery.


So, don't think I'm not taking this seriously.



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Drag Me Down

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RE: edinburgh
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that's really terribly Alison, and horrifying. I don't think anyone on this forum belives you're posting just for the fun of it, think we all know that you are genuinly afraid of what might happen.


But...these kinds of things, as bad as they are, don't happen only in Scottland..I think I understand your point here, that bad things happen when events such as festivals, or protest, take place. 


Yesterday here in Sweden we celebrated the national day, which for the first time was a red day, meaning nobody had to go to work or school. It also meant that alot of people went outside, to demonstrate and protest, to state opinions but also to look for a fight. anarchists, communtists and just people in general with very strong opinion clashed. People got hurt and some went to hospital. But for us here in this country yesterday wasn't really about something, nobody really had anything to say, nothing to protest against. People faught and argued because they had the oppertunity.  The point being, I know things can get out of hand, some people will come to these kinds of things just to stir things up and start fights.


I'm not sure what to make of this discussion here on the forum, I can understand the people who have stated that people will only get hurt and leave a mess behind. I can also relate to the people who say that this isn't about Edinburgh, but about the thousands of people who die on a daily basis, and that we should do something now that we really have a chance. I'm not going to Edinburgh. I'm not going to Live 8 either. But I'm registered on makepovertyhistory.org and try to tell others about what's going on.


We've read both sides arguments, and there's not much left to say. (or is there?) I do however know that we should try (without being patronizing) not to become enemies in this thing. We all hope that nothing bad will happen in Edinburgh, and we all hope that the people at the G8 will make the right thing.  And for now, isn't that any of us can do, hope?



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Tonight

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Hey, Alison,


Fireworks and teenagers are a little more dangerous than peaceful adults who want to help starving Africans.


K?



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Banana Republic

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Thing is Meekus,


Not everyone attending WILL be peaceful adults wanting to help starving Africans - that's the problem


The point is there will be groups of people there that don't want to help Africans but want to create anarchy and that's why the majority of people living in or near Edinburgh aren't looking forward to that week (look back at previous G8 summits for water cannon use, tear gas canisters thrown etc!).


As Johanna noted, nobody wants this thing to go badly and people to get hurt...it's not rocket science...


1 million people in city with total population of 450,000 = problems!



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Tonight

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I believe the bad people will be sorted out right away. Plus, I agree, those types wouldn't be going to this. Lastly, was that article really from 2001?

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Tonight

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"Not everyone attending WILL be peaceful adults wanting to help starving Africans - that's the problem". - Alison


I have a tendency to be a little pessimistic at times.


But do you honestly think that anarchist radicals will want to mingle with peaceful protesters? Their messages are so completely different that I don't make the connection of Anarchist Activists + Peaceful Humanitarian Protesters = Mass Chaos and Complete Anarchy in Edinburgh.



-- Edited by meekus at 03:22, 2005-06-09

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Banana Republic

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Some facts perhaps!
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OK, for those of you out there that don't think Edinburgh will have any problems then have a quick look at these websites (and I only spent 2 minutes looking for them)


 


http://www.fookes.com/gallery/g8/   (photo’s of Geneva before G8 summit - Guess this is what the people of Edinburgh will face that week eh!)


 


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/2954190.stm (protesters rampage at G8 summit in Geneva - um, that will be all those peaceful people out there then....)


 


http://archives.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/europe/07/20/genoa.protests/ ( a different summit - death in Genoa - need I say more)


 


So, you figure.....THERE WILL BE ACTIVISTS THERE and YES, THEY WILL MINGLE (it's not that big a city remember!). I'd love to be proven wrong, I really would but I'm going with PAST G8 protests....and it doesn't look good for Edinburgh....


 


(and yes, the report was from 2001 - it was taken from the Evening News archive pages for that year, pretty easy to find if you use their advance search).


 


 


 



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Tonight

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Hi! I'm a little old & have experience with US demonstrations. I don't know about Europe, but overall, I'm sure everything will be OK. Stay alert and helpful & positive, because it's really a good cause and I'm sure there will be mostly people like yourself and Meekus there.

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Tonight

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Why can't you ever be hopeful?


I have halted myself several times in my life and asked, "Could I be wrong?" Why can't you do the same?


You're trying to make logical sense of this. I'm guessing that you're not among these violent anarchists and what-not. So their violence something you have absolutely no "official" information on, and certainly no control over.


Can you always base the future on past event?


Have Americans been hit by more terrorists in planes since 9/11?


Your logic may seem reasonable to yourself. It seems as if your loss of faith in humanity drives almost all of your logic - at least in this matter.


Let me add this: God forbid something should happen, you'll be all over the internet, on the news, and shouting it in the streets for all who hear, "I told you so! I knew it was going to happen again!" You'll try to be "the talk of the town," living up what no one listened to. That is conceited, but it seems like it's what you're hoping for to boost your "credentials" amongst other users here. You'd feel on top of the world! You knew it was going to happen, and nobody in the forum (because they are all high ranking members of government and society) listened. You could've saved Edinburgh! But at least now you can shove it in the faces of those who criticized you (me).


But imagine this: July 6 comes. There is no violence. There are peaceful protesters who want suffering Africans to be better off. They make their point and go along their merry ways.


Then what will you have been? You will have been a modified Chicken Little - you based your utter faith that, "The sky is falling!" on an acorn that fell. The thing is, the acorn had blown away, and has been gone for 4 years. Your only proof has been long forgotten by most.


If a woodpecker pecks a hole into a tree for a home, as it has done for several years with small damages, will you say that the tree is going to collapse and that you should then slay every species of bird to prevent it? And on top of all of that, then expect people to listen, believe, and act upon what you say?


Think to yourself - perhaps for the first time - "Might I be wrong?"



-- Edited by meekus at 08:03, 2005-06-11

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Banana Republic

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Meekus


All through my threads I have hoped that nothing will happen at Edinburgh - that people will come and have a nice time (so don't be so patronising!) but past G8 summits CANNOT be ignored and there has been violence at most of them (I'm only going on what information is freely available on the internet for those that can be bothered to take a REALISTIC approach to this and what I PERSONNALLY have witnessed on the streets of Edinburgh during large group meetings (New Year, Firework display etc). I live here, YOU DON'T!!


I know you all love BOB and that to criticise him is tantamount to suicide here but there are people with real concerns about what he has urged people to do and to make the comments you have unproductive to say the least!!


I am all for the concerts and raising awareness but as someone involved in health and safety I was initially looking at it from that point of view and it was that that made me post on this forum. I'd love to be proven wrong and will post a comment admiting I overreacted if come the 7th there hasn't been one incident, one person arrested, one broken window, one injury but will YOU admit you were off the mark if anything does happen?


Let's wait and see shall we....



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Never In A Million Years

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alison...


you do not want one incident at the g8 protests. not one. even if people try hard for one incident not to happen, for not one person to be arrested, for not one window to be broken it most probably will happen, because it would happen even if there were no protests!


so if there is ONE incident/arrest/window smashing then we will not admit being 'off the mark'. this protest is trying to unite the world, and you seem keen on dividing it even more. why



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Banana Republic

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I just can't win can I? I have tried to be reasonable - I believe the concerts are a good idea as they will have proper stewarding, first aid facilities, toilet facilities etc. Edinburgh was geared to protesters arriving (about 100,000) which is fine - it can cope with this number. What it can't cope with is the numbers Bob is suggesting.


The previous response had been flippant and dismissive and I'm sorry if my remarks were somehow taken as being "dividing". I'm just sick and tired of people pretending there won't be any trouble at all and that humans are all basically "jolly nice people". Sorry but part of the reason why Africa has such a big debt to pay is people abusing the system (and pocketing the money that was destined for the poor and needy). Corrupt governments and officials lining their own pockets...even one of your own agreed it had happened in the past (GMTV interview this morning - can't mind the girls name) - why should I believe that it's suddenly any different now...?


Mugabe can tear down people's houses from under them..any one that complains "disappears" . Yes, people condemn him but is anything being done for them - is Blair and co planning to invade to rid them of this evil regime...(um, is there any oil there Bush can get?) Will there be concerts for these people (given the press restrictions and sanctions already in place) or will any "aid" disappear and the money be syphoned into the rich people's pockets....


Call me cynical but THAT is the reality of it...that's where at least some of the money goes. Tackle the corruption and then, maybe just maybe the poor really will benefit. After all, Blair led the UK into war against Iraq on a pack of lies but a good lot of you STILL voted for him!! (were the Mugabe elections as open or fair!).


But of course, everyone is lovely with no faults and we live in a world where there is no corruption, no greed and no division...tra la la.....


WAKE UP!!!



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Banana Republic

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I just thought I was an educated realist but whatcha know - I'm a prophet of doom!!



(please lighten up folk!).



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Never In A Million Years

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...maybe you are picking the bad parts of humanity and we are trying to move on believing the best

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Tonight

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Exactly, iluv, could not have said it better myself!! Each one of us has to do something positive. Even just writing about feeling like a prophet of doom, that's a positive step because you are communicating your feelings.

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