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Hope Mark won't mind me sharing that the link is an edited top 40 rundown for Nov '78 (well worth the 11 minute trip down memory lane by way) which culminates with Rat Trap holding off 3 Grease songs (I'd completely forgotten there were 3 in top 4!). As Rat Trap fades, Simon Bates asks the slightly odd question, 'will success change the Boomtown Rats?'.
I say odd because it wasn't as if previous efforts were abject failures or that they had somehow cashed in with a new sound to suit the market, and also because I think it must be nigh on impossible for any artist not to be affected when they've peaked, in as much as pressure to stay at the top mounts. So why did he pick on them in particular I find myself wondering?
I don't think Geldof had particularly alienated the music journos or radio stations at this point; if anything most of them were already fawning over him to get interviews so I can't see there's anything to suggest backlash by late 78. From memory it was at least another year before any serious sniping kicked in from the 'cool' rock press. I doubt there was any suggestion of overbearing arrogance by then, if ever, and Bob the Gob was more feted than slated for his attitude as I recall. They also hadn't varied their sound dramatically, or signalled any intention to.
Whatever it was that prompted the question, with hindsight I can only say it did. Mondays was a departure, albeit a phenomenally successful one, and Surfacing was, as often mentioned on here, just a bit too polished and (over?) produced. The rest is well documented, especially the experimental slight self-indulgence.
I don't think there was much if any primadonna behaviour though, and I never got the impression the band felt they were untouchable or supremely cool, for which I for one am grateful. I don't like 'moody' bands in the main, one reason why I've never been a fan of U2 and the like. At least the Rats stayed in touch with reality compared to some.
The change, in my view, was inevitable. Success, hits and income permit a comfort zone that allows considerable variation of material and sound, and in the Rats' case some worked, much didn't. The fact that Geldof was suddenly fallible created something of a feeding frenzy in the 'serious' music press, and it's possible this generated a siege mentality that almost precluded a return to earlier style and sound, as if Bob was out to prove a point.
Whatever changes there were, they were always going to be highly public. While many bands have a number one and sink without trace, the Rats had established a huge fan base and, perhaps more significantly, the constant attention of the media.
In summary, success will change any band, or individual, so the question is almost rhetorical. If, however, the implication was that they might disappear up their own, so to speak, then, despite the odd notable failure in the musical experimentation, the majority of which were a good couple of years or more after Rat Trap, I find them 'not guilty'.
Didn't mind a bit Suss and overwhelmingly agree with your thoughts on it. I thought it an odd question. Not sure if Simon feared it would change them musically or attitude-wise or what really. Maybe it was just a throwaway comment.
Great piece of nostalgia and brilliant to hear the opening notes after 'Britain's number one' jingle. I will always remember the lead up to Christmas '78. The whole school it seemed was bowled over by the Rats, with badges, records being brought in as gifts, even the PE teacher had it playing on DLT breakfast show as he arrived in his car. The feeling that home grown talent had deservedly and powerfully knocked American bubble gum pop off the top was palpable.
I think the backlash started 1980 and by 1982 it was with some glee that Sounds I think it was headed up their review of V Deep with the words V Dull, V Dismal
I think the backlash started 1980 and by 1982 it was with some glee that Sounds I think it was headed up their review of V Deep with the words V Dull, V Dismal
The backlash started with the release of Surfacing which wasn't well received and for a band coming off of two big number one singles was a relative failure. Much of it was to do with Geldof and Yates being a celebrity couple with lots of features in the red tops and the change in perception of the band. They stopped being a punk/new wave band to many and became part of the establishment.
The Rats did change, but I'm not convinced that it was due to success. Maybe they felt they could take a few risks, but I suspect even if Rat Trap was merely a top ten hit that subsequent albums would have been much the same. Their peers all moved away from their original sound (Blondie, Police, Stranglers, Damned etc.) on latter albums with varying degrees of success.
The only band I can think of that were obviously changed by success were Pulp. This is Hardcore is a pretty good document of the aftermath of finally making it after years of struggle and then finding it wasn't all it was cracked out to be.
I think the backlash started 1980 and by 1982 it was with some glee that Sounds I think it was headed up their review of V Deep with the words V Dull, V Dismal
The backlash started with the release of Surfacing which wasn't well received and for a band coming off of two big number one singles was a relative failure. Much of it was to do with Geldof and Yates being a celebrity couple with lots of features in the red tops and the change in perception of the band. They stopped being a punk/new wave band to many and became part of the establishment.
The Rats did change, but I'm not convinced that it was due to success. Maybe they felt they could take a few risks, but I suspect even if Rat Trap was merely a top ten hit that subsequent albums would have been much the same. Their peers all moved away from their original sound (Blondie, Police, Stranglers, Damned etc.) on latter albums with varying degrees of success.
The only band I can think of that were obviously changed by success were Pulp. This is Hardcore is a pretty good document of the aftermath of finally making it after years of struggle and then finding it wasn't all it was cracked out to be.
If you mean 'as people' Mark, of course it did. If you mean musically yes, too, though it's so hard to predict what musical course the band would have persued anyway. There are just so many variables. I think what we got over the full 10 years was more than good enough.
One this is for sure: they never sold out, or started playing to the lowest common dominator. A lot of the time they were just too good, and sadly the masses did not get it.
I was listening to Never in a Million Years tonight and it defeats me how the masses didn't get this song. It just gets better with each listen.
I remember being underwhelmed when I first heard it on the radio, it just merged in and didn't stand out. It uses the wall of sound but it doesn't have anything that acts as a counterpoint. If you listen to the Spector records they generally have lots of soprano voices, bells and strings that lift the songs, whereas Million Years just drones on at the same level from start to finish. For a song to sound good on the radio it needs to catch the attention of the listener, and Million Years doesn't. The better singles from the Rats have a dynamic attack and lots of variety, and in the case of Rat Trap the whole package.
Personally it is more disappointing that Dave and Drag Me Down never made any impact as they were great singles, but it has to be accepted that they were probably released a couple of years too late. Had either been the lead single of V Deep they would have fared well.
I do agree that Drag me Down is a better song and would even have fared better than Million Years had it been the lead single off ITLG.
However I don't agree that Million Years drones continuously. Geldof's vocals are emotionally charged on this song and there is a mid-piece drum break that is superb and leads off from the first high-pitched 'Years' with seamless continuity, just when you wondering where they were going to go next with the song. The final few lines are sung beautifully and the song wrapped up neatly with the second and final high-pitched 'Years' and I can hear bells (it was released just before Christmas '81) in the play-out.
It wasn't as energetic as the Elephant's Graveyard just some 10 months earlier (although curiously it felt like they had been away years) or She's so Modern some three and a half years prior, but it's no less a single for that. The Rats could make an impact with all sorts of different styles; that they didn't with Million Years is still a bit baffling to me because I thought it came over ok on the radio.
I was listening to Never in a Million Years tonight and it defeats me how the masses didn't get this song. It just gets better with each listen.
I remember being underwhelmed when I first heard it on the radio, it just merged in and didn't stand out. It uses the wall of sound but it doesn't have anything that acts as a counterpoint. If you listen to the Spector records they generally have lots of soprano voices, bells and strings that lift the songs, whereas Million Years just drones on at the same level from start to finish. For a song to sound good on the radio it needs to catch the attention of the listener, and Million Years doesn't. The better singles from the Rats have a dynamic attack and lots of variety, and in the case of Rat Trap the whole package.
Personally it is more disappointing that Dave and Drag Me Down never made any impact as they were great singles, but it has to be accepted that they were probably released a couple of years too late. Had either been the lead single of V Deep they would have fared well.
I find that Never In a Million Years is the song that has the highest emotional impact on me. I know it's not for everyone, though looking at some Youtube comments some people seem to rate it highly. One persons 'droning' is another persons 'subtle emotional undercurrents' that convey lots of passion and defiance. Maybe we take from music what is already in our personality and this is the mystery and complexity of music. The songs reflect some inner workings in our personality that might be largely unconscious.
Again I can see the obvious difference with say, Rat Trap which ticks all the boxes of what a dynamic, ranging, melodic tune 'should be'. But our Rats World Cup might throw a few Spaniards in the works (to quote John Lennon!), so again we have lots of us liking the less 'obvious' songs.
Bottom line is music is entirely emotionally subjective,and all the 'explaining' in the world won't change our opinions.
One persons 'droning' is another persons 'subtle emotional undercurrents' that convey lots of passion and defiance.
Maybe, but it didn't come across on prime time radio. Hence the poor sales. The Rats have plenty of great songs that weren't suited to radio,off hand Fall Down and He Watches It All spring to mind, same with many other bands. Singles aren't necessarily the best nor the most subtle songs, they are the ones that make a more immediate impact. She's So Modern is not as good as most of Tonic for the Troops, but it was the most obvious single.
I agree it's entirely a subjective thing, but popularity/consensus of opinion comes into it and that's why some records will go to number one and others won't make the charts at all. The Rats were less popular in '81 than '78 and there was a larger opinion that Geldof was droning on this one than there was that he was singing defiantly from the heart supercharged with emotion.
Plus a ridiculously blank single cover can't have helped.
One persons 'droning' is another persons 'subtle emotional undercurrents' that convey lots of passion and defiance.
Maybe, but it didn't come across on prime time radio. Hence the poor sales. The Rats have plenty of great songs that weren't suited to radio,off hand Fall Down and He Watches It All spring to mind, same with many other bands. Singles aren't necessarily the best nor the most subtle songs, they are the ones that make a more immediate impact. She's So Modern is not as good as most of Tonic for the Troops, but it was the most obvious single.
The cult of the radio dj, then and now meant that the often spoke over the beginning of a track and cut the song off before it was over. Dj's obsessed with how funny they think they are. I never listen to music on the radio. Not for the last ten years at least. Now it's all Radio 4, BBC 5 live and RTE Radio 1 in Ireland. I prefer to be educated or keep up with current affairs and sport. I don't want my music constantly interrupted by ads, or irritating 'personality' dj's. Only one I like is probably Simon Mayo. The rest are *****
I agree it's entirely a subjective thing, but popularity/consensus of opinion comes into it and that's why some records will go to number one and others won't make the charts at all. The Rats were less popular in '81 than '78 and there was a larger opinion that Geldof was droning on this one than there was that he was singing defiantly from the heart supercharged with emotion.
Plus a ridiculously blank single cover can't have helped.
If the single had started to sell then they might have sorted out a new cover. I doubt if people just decide to buy a single based on the cover- they would just ask for the new Boomtown Rats single. For whatever reason- radio play, bad reviews or the zeitgeist Never In a Million Years was not a hit single. I still think it's a fantastic record , and always will.
-- Edited by noelindublin on Wednesday 14th of May 2014 01:54:50 PM
Same here. In fact on further listens it gets better and better.
I'm also a Simon Mayo fan. I think he was the first of the post Smashie and Nicie DJs who had something between the ears rather than just clamped to them. His Five Live stint was a major success.
He's also a bit of a Rats fan with a nice range played over the last 4 years of Drivetime (5pm to 7pm) and he stuck his neck out playing Room 19 as his record of the week on his Breakfast Show in '92.
I can't stand most of the others and recoil at the Janice Long weather forecast at 1.15am which involves a BBC weather presenter being chatted to by Janice and asked all sorts of inane social questions before we get to what is basically a decent medium range forecast.
Maybe I'm not her biggest fan after she played Tonight in '84 and wondered why we couldn't have another Rat Trap. Later, Andy Kershaw wanted us 'spared' another Rat Trap and said he had not seen eye to eye with Bob at Leeds when he booked the Rats in '82 and says he saw Bob tear down posters of other groups when he thought no one was looking. Sounds a bit odd to me.
Andy Kershaw wanted us 'spared' another Rat Trap and said he had not seen eye to eye with Bob at Leeds when he booked the Rats in '82 and says he saw Bob tear down posters of other groups when he thought no one was looking. Sounds a bit odd to me.
Bob took exception to the posters promoting the forthcoming gig of the Clash a few weeks later, which stated that they were the 'Greatest rock n roll band'. If Kershaw is to be believed Geldof acted way over the top and had to be physically restrained by the rest of the Rats to prevent him hitting Kershaw. Which probably didn't endear him to giving the band future airplay.
As for Never In A Million Years I never liked it, despite repeated plays, nor the video, but absolutely love the cover, thought it was really cool. While the users of the forum will invest time and effort trying to like, understand and appreciate Rats songs, for the average punter a song probably has to grab them in the first 2 radio plays if they are going to buy it. Million Years just didn't make that initial impression for most.
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salutiamo gli amici, il vecchio Bob e le ragazze, sollevando il bicchiere dell' addio
I thought they were poor. In fact, it's hard to make out the band's name and the words Charmed Lives on the single cover even if you wanted to look to buy it. Million Years cover left the vinyl open to wear and tear through the 6 holes and was minimalist nonsense as far as I am concerned. Interesting story about Kershaw though, thanks.
I thought they were poor. In fact, it's hard to make out the band's name and the words Charmed Lives on the single cover even if you wanted to look to buy it. Million Years cover left the vinyl open to wear and tear through the 6 holes and was minimalist nonsense as far as I am concerned. Interesting story about Kershaw though, thanks.
At our record store they never had the singles out to look at unless they were in the bargain bin. You had to ask for them. Sometimes, they'd tried to sell the ones without the picture covers at which point I'd say I wasn't interested and then they would suddenly find one. When you wanted a particular colour of vinyl and you'd have them look through them all until they found the one you wanted. Still they must have loved me. All the money I wasted. I gave up smoking to afford records.
-- Edited by ArrGee on Thursday 15th of May 2014 07:38:27 PM
Million Years cover left the vinyl open to wear and tear through the 6 holes and was minimalist nonsense as far as I am concerned.
One man's minimalist nonsense is another man's stylish innovation I do wonder whether this sleeve artistically influenced New Order's Blue Monday sleeve a year later... featuring cut outs and without the name of the band or the title of the single, and that didn't harm their record sales.
I can't say that my copy has ever got damaged through wear and tear, though in fairness it hasn't received a lot of use, but would have thought one of those clear plastic sleeves record shops used to use would resolve the issue. It certainly wasn't as impractical as the zipper on Sticky Fingers which gouged the record below. Also remember John Peel enthusing about a German heavy metal band whose single was in a sandpaper lined sleeve, so it got more scratchy each time he played it!
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salutiamo gli amici, il vecchio Bob e le ragazze, sollevando il bicchiere dell' addio
It is very subjective to a very large extent. The charts bring a sense of objectivity or relativity to it as they are popularity charts (pop charts) so the more mass appeal, the higher up you go but all it means is more people held Mondays in high esteem than Million Years. You could validly find someone who far prefers Million Years to Mondays, just based on their personal preferences/life experiences (much as Noel was saying). Or, heaven help us, prefers Charmed Lives to Rat Trap.
Same here. In fact on further listens it gets better and better.
I'm also a Simon Mayo fan. I think he was the first of the post Smashie and Nicie DJs who had something between the ears rather than just clamped to them. His Five Live stint was a major success.
He's also a bit of a Rats fan with a nice range played over the last 4 years of Drivetime (5pm to 7pm) and he stuck his neck out playing Room 19 as his record of the week on his Breakfast Show in '92.
I can't stand most of the others and recoil at the Janice Long weather forecast at 1.15am which involves a BBC weather presenter being chatted to by Janice and asked all sorts of inane social questions before we get to what is basically a decent medium range forecast.
Maybe I'm not her biggest fan after she played Tonight in '84 and wondered why we couldn't have another Rat Trap. Later, Andy Kershaw wanted us 'spared' another Rat Trap and said he had not seen eye to eye with Bob at Leeds when he booked the Rats in '82 and says he saw Bob tear down posters of other groups when he thought no one was looking. Sounds a bit odd to me.
Unless you are dealing with specialist music stations like 6 Music or XFM I always get the impression that music takes a backseat to the 'personality' of the modern radio dj. It's a lot more like comedy of the radio, with the occasional song thrown in. Certainly the stations in Dublin I accidentally overhear are normally full of the most irritating would be comedians.
Another prob with radio is they sometimes play a good song and you have to wait twenty minutes to find out who it was.
I agree with you Mark about the inane questions and 'small talk' of radio personalities, ie the banter between items. Also the 'over mateyness'. You wish they would just get on with the news or the music, but no, they must show how sociable they are and what great and friendly people they are.
-- Edited by noelindublin on Monday 19th of May 2014 01:12:49 PM
Million Years cover left the vinyl open to wear and tear through the 6 holes and was minimalist nonsense as far as I am concerned.
One man's minimalist nonsense is another man's stylish innovation I do wonder whether this sleeve artistically influenced New Order's Blue Monday sleeve a year later... featuring cut outs and without the name of the band or the title of the single, and that didn't harm their record sales.
I can't say that my copy has ever got damaged through wear and tear, though in fairness it hasn't received a lot of use, but would have thought one of those clear plastic sleeves record shops used to use would resolve the issue. It certainly wasn't as impractical as the zipper on Sticky Fingers which gouged the record below. Also remember John Peel enthusing about a German heavy metal band whose single was in a sandpaper lined sleeve, so it got more scratchy each time he played it!
I'd go along with Mark on thinking that the NIAMY cover was a bit cheap and shoddy looking. But the product inside was what's most important. I find Blue Monday utterly tedious, never really liked New Order with their dour,clinical sound. Always found them totally overrated and boring, to be frank. Another band with a similar effect was Depeche Mode- the Mogadon effect.
Maybe the idea with Sticky Fingers was to have to keep buying a new copy due to the zipper- planned obsolescence.
-- Edited by noelindublin on Monday 19th of May 2014 01:24:19 PM
-- Edited by noelindublin on Monday 19th of May 2014 01:24:53 PM
I never liked New Order either and have nothing of theirs nor want it. Wasn't a fan of Joy Division either.
Some of Depeche Mode's work is ok but generally anything on these sort of lines doesn't do it for me. Never got Kraftwerk, Numan or Visage.
As you say, what was inside the sleeve is the most important thing and Never in a Million Years is full of passion and emotion and has a great opening vibe.
I never liked New Order either and have nothing of theirs nor want it. Wasn't a fan of Joy Division either.
Some of Depeche Mode's work is ok but generally anything on these sort of lines doesn't do it for me. Never got Kraftwerk, Numan or Visage.
As you say, what was inside the sleeve is the most important thing and Never in a Million Years is full of passion and emotion and has a great opening vibe.
A lot of the keyboard bands of the early eighties were a bit dour and over serious.Now bands like The Human League seem dated, as do a lot of the other synth type groups. Back then they were the 'future'. Gary Numan was ok in small doses. I liked The Associates and Soft Cell though so we can't lump them all in together. Sparks were a proto synth band from the mid/late seventies who were not dour or boring so there is no real law governing the subject. As usual it's all down to our own musical prejudices .
-- Edited by noelindublin on Monday 19th of May 2014 02:48:08 PM
Party fears two one of the best songs of 1982. Billy MacKenzie's story quite sad.
Certainly is one of the most distinctive tracks of the eighties. In the mid nineties I was living in london and on GLR, now BBC Radio London they had an ear for good tunes. One track I always remember is an album track from BM called Winter Academy. Very haunting, Scott walkerish vocals. Unfortunately for BM he seems to have had problems with depression, possibly not helped by lack of interest in his music.
As sometimes happens it takes a death to realish an artists potential. Same with Elliot Smith, and one of Andy Partridge's favourite singers from the seventies called Judee Sill, who killed herself, again due to depression and lack of recognition. Another 'rock and roll' suicide from the early eighties was Susan fassbender, who released the fantastic single Twilight Cafe around the time Associates were big. Another case was Chris Bell from Big Star. Great musicians who unfortunately had problems in their lives.
I do wonder whether this sleeve artistically influenced New Order's Blue Monday sleeve a year later... featuring cut outs and without the name of the band or the title of the single, and that didn't harm their record sales.
